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Failure to Assimilate
Europe’s Discontented Turks
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  • Gary Hemminger

    Someone should really try to understand this in more detail. this is bizarre.

    • D4x

      Yeah, I thought many of Germany’s early Gastarbeiters were Turkish Kurds. Guess not. Perhaps the Turks in EU are as repelled by postmodern culture as many of us are, but willing to delegate to the poll analysts.

      • Andrew Allison

        Given the stellar track record of the pollsters [/sarc], I’d look elsewhere. The composition of the early Gastarbiter population is probably unknowable (they were largely rural, but that doesn’t mean Kurdish). What is clear is that the Turkish population of Germany is largely assimilated. Assimilation is the huge difference between (pre-multiculturalism) immigration to the US and the horrendous mess in Europe. But I think you may be on to something WRT repulsion to postmodern culture.

    • Andrew Allison

      I’ll hazard a guess. The Turks in Europe are largely unassimilated, and thus have not adopted social-democratic values.

  • Angel Martin

    because the EU countries screw up everything they touch, including “liberalising” immigrants.

  • Anthony

    Diasporas can be powerful forces for a strongman ruler such as Erdogan. Diasporas are forces (and their votes and perhaps split loyalties) the West will have to reckon with – Turkey the place where Christianity and Islam met. Something related: https://bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-04-18/why-strongmen-rulers-love-their-emigres

    • CosmotKat

      “Turkey the place where Christianity and Islam met.”

      NO Anthony you are wrong. The place where Christianity met Islam is in the Arab world in the 7th century. Currently the last vestiges of Byzantine Greeks and Christianity is being forced out of or killed off in Turkey. This is in large part due to the rise of political Islam, long supported by Democrats, and Erdogans turn away from a secular society.

      • Anthony

        Of course every informed person knows that (that’s not the point and please don’t troll me). Find another place to harass.

        • CosmotKat

          Stop with accusations of trolling or harassment. If you can’t deal with disagreement than stay off the comment boards, Anthony. I think this qualifies as intellectual cowardice on your part.

          • Anthony

            The accusation is valid. I don’t casually ascribe, now disappear to your other web wanderings (harassment).

          • CosmotKat

            I am glad you agree that you display intellectual cowardice. Now go find a grown man’s courage and stop acting like an arse.

          • Anthony

            Last round, just to emphasize simplistic rational (of Disqus wondering harasser) utilized to justify self-involved badgering – despite being asked to refrain years ago.

          • CosmotKat

            Would you please stop trolling and harassing me, Anthony? If you do not have the intellectual courage to accept a different opinion than STFU and go away. I don’t need a lecture from an intellectual coward.

          • Anthony

            This is for the proprietor of DISQUS: this subscriber (CosmotKat) for the written record (as I stated once before) attaches on to my Disqus postings. I do not know said anonymous subscriber nor have I ever initially replied to writings beyond responding to badgering (I prefer the subscriber ignore both my Disqus commentary and me). File for future use.

          • CosmotKat

            This is for the proprietor of DISQUS: this subscriber (Anthony) for the written record continues to falsely accuse others of trolling when they disagree with his posts. This subscriber cannot tolerate disagreement his notice to you is indicative of his intellectual cowardice and grade school mentality. File for future use.

          • D4x

            Christianity ‘met’ Islam at Tours, France 732 CE, and then Spain, and Vienna, Central Asia, you were correct in your challenge.
            If only Disqus was reachable. I need someone to reply to my Disqus thread so I don’t see tthis morning’s
            pornographic image reply from the ‘resistance’, worse than trolls to post images like that, at PJM where they do not moderate.

          • CosmotKat

            Thank you for your comments. Anthony pulls that juvenile crap all the time. As if I am supposed to tremble in fear of the grade school hall monitor. He cannot tolerate disagreement. I’ll give his pal, Goat kudos for at least engaging despite his hyper-partisan nonsense. At least he accepts a challenge.

          • D4x

            Thank you! Had enough zero tolerance for disagreement past 8 years. My tipping point was being called an Islamophobe for making the case for historic preservation for the building housing the Mosque at Ground Zero in 2011. In the face of compelling historical evidence, the fallback response was still a deplorable label. (That was at the old New Republic, at the time, a safe enough space for Zionists, where the attacks were not death threats but painful legalese. TNR got sold in 2012, and I self-disappeared online. Neither issue should have been partisan. And, this is why I try to not engage ‘hall monitors’.

            They don’t seem to realize they do not persuade.

          • CosmotKat

            Well said. Have you visited Media Matters lately? They are even more unhinged than in the past. I may not agree with Camille Paglia’s politics, but I find her very open minded and clear eyed. She is spot on with her critique of Democrats in this discussion.
            http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/04/19/camile_paglia_trump_already_headed_towards_reelection_democrats_have_overplayed_their_hand.html

            You are correct they do not persuade they coerce and threaten while brain washing the young.

          • D4x

            Perfectly stated: ” they do not persuade they coerce and threaten while brain washing the young.” Camille Paglia IS a brave person.
            As for my online habits, there are benefits to a desktop without audio drivers. Keeps me from roaming too much!

          • CosmotKat

            Thanks! I hear she is a pretty good interview, eats red meat and is razor sharp. In today’s environment deviating from the left wing playbook gets you ostracized and your character assassinated. Brave is the word!

  • Nevis07

    While I judge every man and women on their own merits and character, this as a single point of statistical reference should highlighted to anyone promoting Muslim immigration. America, even as a nation of immigrants, is in no way special when it comes to immigration, we’re a large country both geographically and demographically, but assimilation is still tied to the number of immigrants and the margin of cultural values. Assimilation matters for the sake of our own social coherence and stability.

    • Andrew Allison

      The USA used to be (before all the multicultural BS) very special. Immigrants were expected, if not required, to assimilate. We’ve been busy for some time now trying to negate that by encouraging tribalism, er multiculturalism, and if you want to see where that leads, look at Africa.

      • ——————————

        Unfortunately in the age of Identity Politics, expecting assimilation has now become xenophobia….

        • Andrew Allison

          Nope, it’s regarded as racism.

          • ——————————

            Racisim to a degree, but assimilation (or failure to), is more a function of culture of another country, irrespective of race…so ‘expecting’ assimilation is now considered xenophobic…in the eyes of the left, at least….

          • Andrew Allison

            Agreed, but that wasn’t quite my point. The problem is that the lunatic left, but I repeat myself, screams racism whenever attempts are made to encourage assimilation. Whilst on the subject, the most despicable thing that the late, and unlamented by the sentient, Obama administration did was magnify the black/white racial divide. Thanks to him, we’re back behind the 60s. Apologies for any offense but, as a reformed (naturalized because I really care) drunk , I’m more than a bit passionate about this country.

          • ——————————

            No offense taken, for sure.

            I am also quite passionate about this country, and am more than angered at the iniquitous direction it has taken in the last 50+ years.

            As a life-long teetotaler, am glad you have “reformed”….

          • Jim__L

            No longer a citizen of the world then, eh? Captain Renault would be disappointed. 😉

    • CosmotKat

      “America, even as a nation of immigrants”

      One of the myths that needs to be dispelled. America is a nation that welcomes immigrants, but it is not a nation of immigrants. Beyond that I agree with your comments.

      • Jeff77450

        Agreed. America was created by settlers. Settlers move into a wilderness and create a nation from scratch. Immigrants move into an existing system.

  • solstice

    There exists a very simple, straightforward, and humane solution to the presence of unassimilable, hostile, and culturally incompatible Muslims in the West: mass deportation.

    • Andrew Allison

      Admittedly non-humane but, given the threat of Muslim radicalism, Arbiet Macht Frei (with which the Germans have considerable experience) might have a certain appeal [/grin].

      • ericr2

        As a Jew, I see no reason to grin. As a rightist, I see no reason to think the Europeans have the guts to take any measure even 1/10 as brutal against Muslims on the continent.

        • Andrew Allison

          Apologies if I gave offense. And I agree.

    • Muslims in Europe do seem to have a much harder time assimilating to their adopted societies than those in the United States and Canada…and a greater number of young radicals seem to arise from their countries as well.

      • They have huge amounts of time on their hands and pocket money for nothing. Idle hands, and all that. Even more, idle minds.

        • It might also be because the U.S. has historically been more receptive to a wider range of immigrants than Europe. Like it or not, America is a true melting pot…Europe, not so much.

      • Pete

        Solution: Send Europe all our muslims!

      • CosmotKat

        I think you are mistaken. Assimilation is not encouraged by Democrats, but rather integration which allows sub-cultures to grow within their host country. This never ends well.

      • wri

        True, and the reason is that they are sent a message by the society into which they have immigrated — express or implicit, intentional or not — that they can never truly be a citizen of that society. How and why this happens resides in the mists of the cultural history of the European countries, but I think it is experrienced by immigrants as a palpable reality. As I note above, we have defined America in a way that makes it easy for diverse peoples to assimilate, but there are dominant poltical elements in our country working hard to make us more like Europe.

    • ericr2

      There is no way to accomplish that now. Any attempt to do that will result in bombing after bombing, until Europeans are afraid to go on a bus, on a train, walk to a market, and be in any crowd. It will accelerate the economic and social collapse of Europe.

      • solstice

        There certainly is a way to accomplish that now. What does not currently exist in Europe now is the will to do what needs to be done.

        • ericr2

          When you have 20+ million Muslims, it only takes one in 100,000 (200 of them) in coordinated attacks over a few weeks, to cripple the continent and bring it to collapse and starvation.

  • FriendlyGoat

    Well, it’s good to know that the Turks in the U.S. (84% No) and U.K. (80% No) have some sense. Why is that when the others living in Europe apparently did not “have sense” on this issue for their country?

    • ericr2

      Turks in America are not on welfare.

      • FriendlyGoat

        Meaning what?

        • ericr2

          That they do not have time on their hands to seethe, build up hatreds as a result of that seething, and because of their being idle, act upon it.

          Not that it will stop all terrorism. As the Tsarnaev brothers showed.

          FG, I know from reading enough of WRM that you are the hard leftist pretending to be a center leftist.

          That is all I will have to say to you.

          • FriendlyGoat

            I am an old rightist who knows “rightism” went over an edge. I wasn’t born left. I flipped. That tends to make one explain his leftism—–as I do.

          • Anthony
          • FriendlyGoat

            Thanks for this. I have very mixed feelings about it, pro and con. Here they are in—-wait for it—–a list. I’m not sure they reach a conclusion.

            1) Some of America’s independent (and conservative) mega-churches have been founded by husband and wife teams who refer to themselves as co-pastors. They attempt to thread this needle carefully so as not to “offend” the scripture they find in support of men leading AND enlarge the traditional role of “pastor’s wife”, AND enjoy the convenience of the lady leading certain kinds of ministries, AND make a niche for feminism in church—-all at once. This is one route forward for women leading church, but I have grown a little skeptical of what amounts to church as a “family business” whether led by a man or led by H/W teams as co-pastors. They all get independent “board members” for show, but in many ways they are cults built around the gregariousness of certain personalities. Can be good or not good, but a lot of the growth of church today is sort of privately held and not exactly denominational.

            2) Both the Catholics and the Muslims (in somewhat different ways) have outsized (to my way of thinking) doctrine built around Mary, virgin mother of Jesus, which raises a female role in those religions to a very high level. But Mary is worshipped primarily for “perpetual” virginity and does not——herself—–preach. This has always struck me oddly, since most scholars believe Mary later gave birth to several more kids who were younger siblings of Jesus. James is most prominent of these—– “James the Just”, leader of the Jerusalem church after Jesus’s death. I try not to be disrespectful of Mariology, but I don’t really get it and have wondered if James, if alive today, might find the whole idea astonishing. This is one path, though, for elevation of the female in religion. (I didn’t know until recently that this is a big deal in Islam—-same Mary.)

            3) For couples going to church, I have heard it said that some men find it difficult to sit under the preaching of a female pastor, and I have wondered if this is a drag on attendance and membership in those denominations where it is common. I have no experience in them. For Catholics, the priest hears private confessions. How that would go with men confessing to a lady—-I have no idea, but have suspected this is one reason the Vatican position never changes.

            4) One bizarre experience of my life includes this. My wife’s folks moved around to different towns many times in our early marriage.
            After decades out of church, they had returned to church life and always found a small Pentecostal-type (Assemblies of God and others) to attend. We visited them in several locations and always went to church with them wherever they were. In one place, on someone’s recommendation, they frequented a small “Tabernacle” out in the country where a woman, Sister Grace they called her, was the preaching leader. She was loud, talked fast, preached salvation “hard” and was into speaking in tongues. She also traveled with and lived with another woman who was her friend. I would have bet a dime to a donut they were a “couple”, but no one in that conservative church seemed to notice at all. If anyone had uttered “lesbian”, I’m sure their hats would have all flown straight upward (you know), but that’s what it looked like to me.

            After I had seen Sister Grace preach several times, it happened that we hospitalized our son (then maybe 12) with a mysterious high fever and severe widespread rash. My wife’s folks mentioned this at church—-soooo Sister Grace and her friend drove 100 miles to our location to pray for him. He recovered almost immediately. I don’t think the doctors ever knew what had been wrong with him or where it went. We didn’t either. I took it into my heart as a lesson to NOT EVER question ANYTHING about those who volunteer their prayers. If some stranger offered to pray with me about anything, I would welcome it with an open heart. Anyway, the folks soon moved and I never heard of Sister Grace again. ?????

            5) The best teaching I have had about male headship in marriage was a weekend seminar done by a lay couple. She preached hard on female submission and her husband preached harder to the guys about the only way it works is if the husband himself is in submission to Jesus AND has a “servant’s heart” in how he “leads”. Bossing her around was absolutely NOT (NOT) the idea. He was to love her deeply, respect her deeply, seek her welfare in prayer and THEN “lead” in that spirit. It’s my opinion that not too many of us can really do that well enough, but that it works for both partners if (IF) he is truly seeking spiritual guidance. I personally know it is sobering to be trusted by a good girl—-it can grow the guy right up in a hurry.

            6) The old marriage vows used by many pastors out of the back of a church book, asked for wives to “love, honor and obey”. In the old days, lots of people just said “I do” or “I will” to those because they were a common norm. Today, some couples write their own vows and say alternative things to each other when getting married. Those may be all over the map on what is actually promised. That’s progress, I think. Say what you mean, no?

            7) I have a heart for the phrase “Community Church”, sometimes
            used as a signal of openness to LGBT people. This might (might) be where female pastors do the greatest work. I don’t know.

            Thanks for inviting me to ramble. And “rambling” it was.

          • Anthony

            You’re welcome and I appreciated all eight (8) and wish I could contribute. But, nothing to add to an appreciative sharing of an article on women, men, and church involvement. The Heart and Faith benefit from “words to live by”, thanks FG.

    • CosmotKat

      The host countries do not have the same history that was guided by the rule of law like those of the Anglosphere. The big issue for the US will be the continued growth in dual citizenship. It doesn’t work as you can see in Turkey.

    • Most Muslim-Americans are generally more liberal than those in Europe.

      • FriendlyGoat

        I wish they were liberal enough to stop believing that the sayings of Muhammad supersede everything else in human thought. If they were, we would have “the key” to peaking Islam, no?

        • Yes…that is the ultimate paradox.

          Islam in itself is a deeply conservative and traditional belief system, requiring much daily prayer and discipline in all aspects of one’s life, however those who seem to defend and sympathize with it most in the West are actually liberals.

          • FriendlyGoat

            True. Liberals actually believe in both freedom OF religion for those who wish to practice any religion and freedom FROM religion for those who wish to not have any aspect of their lives influenced in any way by the religion of others. Many of us are inclined to take a position of “I’m Okay, You’re Okay” toward any Muslim who treats everyone else with civility and kindness. Unfortunately, most true Muslims are obligated by their holy writings to believe that Islam means “submission” and that it is the will of Allah for everyone to eventually submit to its precepts. This is a problem for both Christians and secular liberals. We WANT to just be kind, and with respect to some Muslims, that approach can be a tad naïve.

  • Matt Book

    Mark Steyn put up an interesting post in which he showed that there are three Turkish populations: European oriented Med coast, Kurdish far eastern region, and in the middle a large swath of much more Islamist people. The last group is growing in population and its demographics have democratically given Erdogan the train ride to this authoritarian stop where they are happy to now get off. I bet most of the Turkish immigrants in Europe come from that population. Europeans better look long and hard at the example of modern Turkey – but they won’t.

    • Andrew Allison

      Link please. It’s my current impression that urban (educated?) Turkey voted no and rural Turkey (and the diaspora) voted yes; but, of course, we’ll probably never know what the vote might have been absent the repression of the opposition or even, given the rather blatant rigging, what it actually was.

    • ericr2

      You are correct. When you ask who lost Turkey, it is the Kemalists/Secularists. Because they did not create little Kemalists.

      However, when you look at the next 25-50 years, it is the ethnic Turks as a whole who must be concerned.

      If I am Erdogan, or whoever takes over for him at the AKP, I might have to look at letting the Kurds go, so that I can retain a Turkish nation.

  • Andrew Allison

    The fact that roughly 70% of the Turks resident in Europe voted for what is, in effect, a Muslim dictatorship should be cause for serious concern on the part of the EU.

  • Eurydice

    If they can vote in Turkish elections, then they’re still Turkish citizens, so I don’t see how assimilation comes into it. And the assumption that because they live in a more liberal country, they will become more liberal themselves isn’t necessarily true. Sometimes the diaspora can be more conservative than the country from which they came – it’s about holding onto traditions and culture.

    • Jim__L

      Citizenship in Germany (last I looked, over a decade ago) isn’t by birthright, and it’s actually quite hard to get. On the other hand, non-citizens have a lot more rights than in the US (even to the point of being able to hold public office.) German-born Turks may well be able to vote in Turkish elections.

      • Eurydice

        If German-born Turks are German citizens, then they can’t vote in Turkish elections – at least, that’s how I remember it. German citizenship used to be by birthright, then it was changed to “German born” and then it was changed to some required number of years residency.

    • CosmotKat

      The rise of dual citizenship. I see you are beginning to recognize this danger. It’s been happening in the U.S. for some time. See Samuel Huntington’s “Who Are We” for more on this subject.

  • It is their choice, just the British who voted for Brexit. Their nation, their responsibility.

    However, Turkey’s once-secular democracy has been steadily declining for years now, this is only just another negative development. Its freedom of press alone has been heavily restricted as of late:
    https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/turkey

    And it is actually very difficult to gauge Erdogan’s foreign policy, his agenda seems relatively unpredictable.

    He seems to prefer increasingly aligning his country with Russia and has deeply strained ties with the European Union, yet at the same time strongly opposes Assad (which Putin supports and the E.U. is against). Add that to his animosity with the Kurds, whom Turkey’s NATO allies are continuing to support. Geopolitics is honestly very complicated.

    • D4x

      Geopolitics is especially complicated for Turkey. Location. Erdogan’s paranoia with Kurds is Erdogan’s Achilles’ Heel.

  • But the Euroturks will not have to live under Erdoganism. Not until they have worked for it to be imported into Europe and how long will that take? At least a couple months!

  • ericr2

    If the Turks, who emigrated to Germany during the Kemalist era, cannot assimilate, not only can we expect little hope for assimilation from more recent Turkish immigrants, but we can expect little hope for assimilation from Islamic immigrant to Europe from anywhere.

    But then again, the leftists who run Europe are primarily interested in destroying the old Western culture, and are happy to have these Muslims as their foot soldiers. Once the old Judeo-Christian West is completely gone, the Marxists and Islamists will battle it out on the streets of Europe, with rivers of blood flowing.

  • QET

    I’m not sure assimilation (or the lack thereof) has much, if anything, to do with it. It may be as simple as feelings of national pride gaining the upper hand among emigrants who won’t have to actually live under the despotic regime they voted in. The Bloomberg article Anthony linked to is worth a read on this score.

  • Pete

    Maybe someday Europe will purify itself of all muslims,.

  • CosmotKat

    Ignore this reality at your own peril. The Pro-Political Islamist Democrats who agitate on behalf of Islamic invasion will rue the day they invited Sharia to our country.

    • Albert8184

      No they won’t. What they’ll do is blame all the resultant unpleasantness on intolerance, Islamophobia and racism from the usual scapegoats, who are forcing otherwise-peaceful Muslims to resort to extremism to defend themselves from attack.

      • CosmotKat

        Perhaps you’re right. It would be amusing if it wasn’t so sad that Democrats hate their political rivals so much they prefer to Islamic terrorists over their own countrymen.

        • Albert8184

          Birds of a feather…..

  • donqpublic

    At the risk of being politically incorrect, this Muslim proclivity for “going native” is not surprising.

  • Beauceron

    Those stats should shock a lot of people.

  • wri

    These results should get the attention of both Europe and the U.S. But the results are likely to be misread in the U.S. What they demonstrate is the magical results produced by the American “melting pot,” defined as something (a combination of country and idea) that commands the respect and allegiance of all citizens, regardless of ethic, relligious or other differences, but which nevertheless allows all groups to retain their individual differences within a tolerant society. The liberal elite who set the societal/cultural agenda in the U.S. will misinterpret these results as confirmation of the success of their “diversity” politcally correct agenda. In fact,the strident PC focus on the importance of group differences, with some favored and some maligned, has led to a hostile intolerant society, which sets one group against another and encourages all of them to denigrate the society in which they live. They are destroying the American melting pot and creating a society in which new immigrants will be encouraged to think like those in Europe.

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