Obamacare: A Hipster’s Paradise?
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  • Corlyss

    If the history of Obamacare thus far has proven anything, it’s that a whiny constituency supposed to knuckle under to the law can easily wiggle out of it by raising a big enough stink. There’s no reason to believe the whiny constituency that got their student loans off loaded onto the taxpayers and their interest payments reduced would suddenly find itself mute in the face of more expenses it doesn’t want to pay.

    • Tom Lindmark

      Actually they don’t have to whine. The law specifically limits IRS collection efforts.

      “In the case of any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed by this section,” Section 1501 of the Affordable Care Act reads, “Such taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.”http://tinyurl.com/cvb2tbv

      All they can do is dock your tax refund. How long do you think it will take for people to pick up on this?

      • cubanbob

        That won’t last. What other tax do you have the choice of paying a penalty that is less than the tax but not the underlying tax? In a few years the hipsters are going to be in for a rude surprise when they are forced to pay both the tax and the penalty.

    • Andrew Allison

      You overlooked the efforts of our Reprehensatives, as they do so many other of the other burdens they impose upon those they were elected to represent, to wiggle out of it.

      • Corlyss

        They are the whiniest of constituencies and they have the clout to get what they want. If they don’t get it today or tomorrow, they’ll get it next month or next year.

        • Andrew Allison

          Today’s news: they’ve done it already LOL

  • bpuharic

    Nobody needs healthcare until they do. When these healthy folks get in a car accident, or their kids get sick, then they’ll be happy they signed up. And 20 years from now we’ll be just like any other advanced country with universal healthcare. Only a century late.

    • Jeff Jones

      And universal healthcare will fail. Then we can be just like any other advanced country and increasingly rely on private healthcare.

      Either way the market will prevail.

      • bpuharic

        Can’t wait, can you? That will prove the Truth of Calvinist American capitalism

        It’s been fifty years in other countries. Any idea when this failure will happen?

        • Jeff Jones

          > Can’t wait, can you? That will prove the Truth of Calvinist American capitalism

          No. That’s how people like you think. I don’t hope for things to fail. I just don’t see any reason to try things that have failed over and over again.

          > It’s been fifty years in other countries. Any idea when this failure will happen?

          A lot faster than 50 years now that people can find clinics online and can easily travel to other states. And, then we’ll still have the bifurcated health system that Obamacare is fostering now. I certainly don’t want to pay $6,000/year for my family to be members of MDVIP, but I will if it gets harder and harder to see a doctor. Then, what has this law accomplished?

          • bpuharic

            And the success of our ‘free market’ was the most expensive healthcare in the world…which failed to cover all. Great success, that.

            And how hard is it now to see a doctor if you con’t have health insurance?

          • Jeff Jones

            > And the success of our ‘free market’ was the most expensive healthcare in the world

            We haven’t had true free market healthcare since around 1950, so that argument doesn’t hold water.

            > which failed to cover all

            An unfortunate choice. You can’t have first class (non-rationed) care AND have everyone covered at the same level. I would love to see everyone covered. But, that’s just not reality, ESPECIALLY in a country with $17 trillion in debt and nearly half of the population paying no income taxes. These countries you cited before (Sweden, Canada, Germany) all have close to 100% of their populations paying income tax, and even THEY have to rely on some private providers.

            There are some realities that people just need to accept:

            1) The above point about first class care and universal coverage
            2) It is impossible to have a strong, productive economy without some people getting fabulously rich.

          • bpuharic

            The No True Scotsman fallacy on display.

            We haven’t had a ‘free market’ in healthcare? Well, 70 percent of our healthcare market is NOT paid for by the govt, as opposed to OTHER COUNTRIES where healthcare IS paid for by govt.

            So the fact is we should have the LOWEST cost healthcare, IF govt programs are ALWAYS more expensive. But we don’t.

            And we DO have rationed care. THis is one of the most enduring myths of the right; that the US does not ration healthcare.

            The fact is, we do. We ration by price and ability to pay. Very inefficient for an inelastic item like healthcare.

            We can’t have covered everyone?

            Strange…this is a uniquely American source of pride. We’re actually PROUD of our failure NOT to do what every single other advanced country does. Provide quality healthcare to all.

            And that ‘half’ you refer to would include, if the GOP had its way, billionaires since they want to eliminate capital gains taxes. Again they’d shift the tax burden to the middle class. While denying us healthcare.

            THOSE countries have LESS inequality than we do and MORE social mobility.

            So the right’s argument is that we have

            the most expensive healthcare in the world

            it doesn’t cover everyone

            We have less social mobility than anyone else

            Greater inequality

            Greater poverty

            and that’s a success story??

            American exceptionalism indeed!

          • Jeff Jones

            > We can’t have covered everyone?

            Strange…this is a uniquely American source of pride. We’re actually PROUD of our failure NOT to do what every single other advanced country does.

            I’ve already cited neutral sources that demonstrate that they don’t, at least, not without help from private providers.

            > The fact is, we do. We ration by price and ability to pay.

            That is called a market. This whole discussion comes down to a difference in belief system. From what I can tell, you don’t believe in leaving people to fend for themselves. I do. The problem with my solution is that some people are more ambitious than others and the doctors will favor them. The problem with your solution is the same, but your answer to that is to use government force to prevent it, which is the point when all universal healthcare systems start to fail. Then, like in Canada, the government starts looking the other way when private providers start picking up the slack.

            You see, I understand when you live in a free country, dealing with the opposing ideology is a life sentence. I don’t get that same vibe from your posts. I think you believe that, someday, the left is going to win and discussions like ours will be a thing of the past (Read Tim Wise’s “Open Letter to the White Right…” for an example of that mentality).

          • bpuharic

            No you haven’t. The fact some in other countries buy ADDITIONAL private coverage does not vitiate the fact they have virtually universal coverage which we do not.

            And there’s no reason why the market is sacrosanct. If it fails..and market failures DO happen, then we must resolve the failures. The fact the right worships the market slavishly merely shows they don’t think.

            People DO fend for themselves. The fact you think the lives of the working poor are worthless is a fact I think is anti-American and inhuman.

            Paris HIlton is more ambitious than a janitor who works 2 jobs? Really? Proof

            You right wingers have a puppy love for the market and can’t conceive of failures. The FACT these happen ALL The time, as I just showed, will be ignored by you.

            The right thinks economics is a morality play with the American market being perfect, infallible and the poor dying because they’re lazy

            The lazy rich? Well they’re perfect BECAUSE they’re rich.

          • Jeff Jones

            > No you haven’t. The fact some in other countries buy ADDITIONAL private coverage does not vitiate the fact they have virtually universal coverage which we do not.

            If that’s true, then why are certain factions in their populations constantly fighting the growth of private healthcare. If they have universal coverage, it shouldn’t matter to those groups, right?

            > the right worships the market slavishly merely shows they don’t think.

            Saying I think cost reduction, which universal healthcare precludes, is more likely in a market-driven system than a government one is not market worship. It’s common sense based on observation of these countries you cite. Nobody is saying our system does not need reform. It does. But there is no reason we can’t have the same race to the bottom on prices that the car insurance industry has…if they would just allow competition. Giving companies virtual monopolies on states is not a true marketplace.

            > The fact you think the lives of the working poor are worthless is a fact I think is anti-American and inhuman.

            I didn’t say they were worthless. That is another one of your attempts to make my words sound hyperbolic. I believe in a safety net for the truly poor. What I don’t believe in is providing government assistance to middle class people who don’t need it…like me.

            > Paris HIlton is more ambitious than a janitor who works 2 jobs? Really? Proof

            Maybe not Paris Hilton, but she is a ridiculous example. You’re engaging in the error of the false choice. Her grandfather Conrad was certainly ambitious.

            > You right wingers have a puppy love for the market

            No we don’t. I’ll be the first to tell you that markets need REASONABLE regulation. I.T. regulatory compliance is what I do for a living. But, I don’t believe in punishing regulation, nor rules that stifle competition, which is what we have in the healthcare industry. I certainly don’t think that critical resource industries should be wide open (Enron).

            > The right thinks economics is a morality play with the American market being perfect, infallible and the poor dying because they’re lazy. The lazy rich? Well they’re perfect BECAUSE they’re rich.

            Again, your words. Not mine.

          • bpuharic

            We ALREADY have private healthcare. It’s failed. Why do they have private healthcare?

            Some of them don’t. Some for additional coverage beyond the high quality care they already get. Some, like the Swiss, make it MANDATORY that you buy health insurance.

            But the fact is they have

            universal coverage

            Cheaper than we do with our free market system.

            And if unviersal coverage REDUCED costs

            where’s your proof? We DONT have universal coverage and our costs are the highest in the world

            Did you forget that?

            And the govt is NOT PROVIDING ASSISTANCE to the middle class. DId you forget how Obamacare works? If you have inurance there is NO CHANGE.

          • Jeff Jones

            > And the govt is NOT PROVIDING ASSISTANCE to the middle class. DId you forget how Obamacare works? If you have inurance there is NO CHANGE.

            Not what I meant. Why does the middle class need Medicare? Without that monstrous albatross, we might be able to actually provide a decent Medicaid safety net for the poor. But, instead, both programs are broke and doctors avoid them like the plague.

          • bpuharic

            Why shouldn’t we have medicare? It works and is more efficient than the private sector.

          • Jeff Jones

            > Why shouldn’t we have medicare? It works

            For now. It will go broke without serious reform…soon.

            > is more efficient than the private sector.

            Did you type that with a straight face? You have to have a private sector supplement plan to ever hope to get decent treatment with Medicare. My doctor only agreed to take my father as a patient when he moved to Texas because I was already her patient and because my dad has a top tier supplement through United Healthcare.

    • Andrew Allison

      I think you’ve got it backwards. When these healthy folks get in a car accident or their kids get an immediately life-threatening disease (if the disease is not immediately life threatening, they’ll sign up for insurance), then they’ll be sorry they didn’t sign up. Meanwhile, ACA insurance will continue to implode as only those who actually need healthcare sign up.

      • bpuharic

        And, again, every single advanced country in the world does what we can’t

        And the American right thinks that’s exceptionalism.

    • cubanbob

      20 years from now those who can will get private care just like in those countries you tout. The masses get the NHS. The classes get private care. Like Princess Kate.

      • bpuharic

        Of course, you guys have been saying this for 40 years.

        Any idea when you’ll be right?

        • cubanbob

          Can you actually refute something?

          • bpuharic

            I just did. THe right has been predicting healthcare collapse overseas for decades because ‘socialists’ don’t let the poor die.

            As I said…any idea when your prediction will come true?

          • cubanbob

            Really? You refuted nothing. There is private care in the UK and in every EU country. If the government was so wonderful why would anyone pay twice for it? Heck even Canada now allows private.

          • bpuharic

            And yet they cover everyone. THeir costs are lower. Again, our system is a failure

            Any reason you think that’s great?

          • cubanbob

            Figures lie and liars figure. The devil is in the details. If they have lower costs its because they provide lesser care. Try reading the UK press for their near daily outrage over some NHS scandal involving lack of care leading to death. We could save a fortune as well if Medicare and Medicaid applied the same cost savings the NHS does. You confuse ‘coverage’ with care. If the NHS care was so wonderful the UK would have to be populated with wealthy and upper-middle class dolts. How else can one explain why anyone would pay twice for the same service.

          • bpuharic

            Proof they provide ‘lesser’ care? Life expectancy? Better than ours. Infant mortality? Better than ours.

            Daily outrage? You mean like dropping off uninsured patients on Skid Row like US hospitals do in the US? Kinda forgot about that didn’t you? Or the 26,000 who die each year from lack of access to healthcare in the US. Talk about an outrage!

          • f1b0nacc1

            Don’t waste your time with this one…he simple regurgitates the same talking points over and over…
            “Nothing is impossible for a mind impervious to reason” – Winston Churchill

          • bpuharic

            Empty and devoid of facts. IOW typical right wing response.

            Epistemic closure indeed.

  • Left Back

    “Insurance will be more expensive under Obamacare than it is now, ”

    So nobody at Via Meadia has seen all the news about the lower rates being posted at state insurance exchanges? NY and California at least and maybe a few more. Also, premiums will be subsidized on a sliding scale up to around $90,000 income.

    • Jeff Jones

      The California lower rates were debunked. WRM wrote about that. And the NY savings are not replicable elsewhere because their premiums were higher to begin with.

    • cubanbob

      Subsidized by whom? You?

    • David Leifer

      Left back- I desire for you to subsidize me…deal ?

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