France And Turkey in Genocide Brawl: Both Wrong
Published on: December 22, 2011
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  • Harun

    “Regardless of the merits about what did or didn’t happen in the waning days of Nazi power in Poland, nobody doubts that terrible massacres took place — a huge tragedy. ”

    Yeah, I can totally see this. Mead, has you lost your moral compass completely?

  • Kris

    “French popular opinion is very concerned about the inclusion of a large (and increasingly pious) Islamic country in the EU.”

    Ah, the famous Gallic pride. France is determined to be the first Muslim country in the EU.

    “What the Armenians suffered at the hands of the Turks and Kurds was worse than what the Palestinians have suffered at the hands of the Israelis.”

    The famous Mead understated-ness.

    Regarding Holocaust denial laws: I’m not a big fan, and would oppose any attempt to pass such laws in the US. But Europe is not the US.

    I am reminded of a famous essay
    by Steven Den Beste. (Its relevance eventually emerges.)

    (This comment was brought to you by the word “famous.”)

  • John

    Mr. Mead,

    You are a thoughtful analyst. Your articles are a must read. But you are also a student of history and an honest man. You know the terrible tragedy was a genocide and implied it in your essay.

    Yet you diplomatically avoided stating unequivocally (the operative word) that the Turks committed a genocide against the Armenians!

    So, let me ask you sir:
    Do you personally believe the events in 1915-1923 were a genocide?
    P.S. And may God bless you.

  • hale kuterdem

    I hate lies and you build up your assey on lies. I don’t blame you, because your sources are biased. Just for a moment, think yoursef is an Ottoman sultan. Your country is crumbling, 5 million Muslims are killed or exiled from the Balkans. Your soldiers are hungry, not even have shoes. (I suggest you to see the photoes of turkish soldiers in dardanelles in 1915) They die not from the wounds of eneny soldiers but from the cold and diseases. while you are waging war at many front, some of your communities hitting back you. They orginize attacks to turkish villages and troops, killing. torturing them. I am from the Black Sea region. When Russian bombed us, our grad parents fled to the mountains, only to find Armenian gangs to attack them. Even some Armenians admit they were soldiers in Russian army. What would you as a sultan do? Would you say, OK, let me give you half of our territory, although you have no massive population? Or would you say I will relocate you in the country till Russian threat is off?

    In Kastamonu, city population prevented their Armenian neighbours to relocated, because they did not pose a threat against the state. Only Armenians in the East were relocated. There are lots of memory like that.

    Maybe you have better option which Ottomans did not think about.

    We are sorry for all the people who suffered ın the world war one both turks and armenians.

    Lies must be decoded. I hope, good historians will take care of it.

    hale tuna kuterdem

  • Jacksonian Libertarian

    So you think what the French and the Turks are doing is a mistake. Uh, Hello, It’s the French and the Turks; you can never go wrong by doing the exact opposite of what ever those two are doing.

  • Timur Akhun

    Armanian’s are a few millions,we are more than 300 millions all over the world.What did you do(France) in Turkiye at WW1,in Adana,Maras,Antep many people of us murdered by your soldiers.Did we anytime attack to France or Armania ?We didn’t.

    If you had breave why didn’t you try to stop us in 1915.Go your wife Sarkozy,she can tell you the truth about history,atleast her history.

  • John

    Its amusing and disturbing when Central Asian nomads (aka Turks and their ilk) preach morality to Europe! “The sick man of Europe” anyone? Time’s up. Gotta face up to the truth. But this is a big and complex game and you are not in the big league, as Prof. Mead points out.

  • Kenny

    “Another force behind the new law in France is that country’s campaign to keep Turkey out of the EU.”

    Turkey and the Turks in the EU! What an absurd thought.

    You and your kiddies don’t seem to know much history, Mr. Mead.

    There’s an expression by Rudyard Kipling that is appropriate here: “East and East and West is West and never shall the twain meet.”

  • Jason

    Some of the comments here are incredible.

    This is the problem with trying to strike a sensible middle position: you end up attracting the hatred of idiot ideologues on both sides.

    Clearly Turkish propaganda has worked, if the above comments are any indication. Moreover, the comments attacking WRM for denying the genocidal nature of the massacre are asinine and display a 4th grade level of reading comprehension.

    Saying that one should not be legally prohibited from saying X is not the same thing as defending X. In Turkey or in France.

    Is that so hard to understand?

  • Sait

    Europa say only christian suffers’
    My grandfathers come from east europa with hard No willingness… Where is the west thracei Türks.
    5 million İslam Türk people had been imigrant and over the 2 million civil killed at 1900’s… İf you say your suffer is genocide,This is our genocide , it did imperial european hands. Plase to Regard Turkish people.
    So you dont want to say about our suffers.

  • Dick Pickett

    Genocide entered international law for the first time in 1948; the international community took notice when Europeans (Jews, Poles, and other victims of Nazi Germany) faced cultural extinction. The “Holocaust” of World War II came to be the model of genocide.

    Approximately 36 years before the Buffalo Soldiers were mustered into the U.S. Cavalry, President Andrew Jackson signed into law the Indian Removal Act of 1830. No one can deny that this amounted to ethnic cleansing. When a United States President calls for ethnic cleansing, this is a mandate for genocide.

    There were Buffalo Soldiers at Wounded Knee .

    Was the slaughter of hundreds of unarmed men, women and children a force for good? I guess it would depend on who you asked. If you had asked Teddy Roosevelt he would have said, “The most ultimately righteous of all wars is a war with savages, though it is apt to be also the most terrible and inhuman. Was Teddy Roosevelt a force for good when he charged up San Juan Hill in Cuba? The Buffalo Soldiers served with him.

    In 1896 Teddy Roosevelt was quoted in Century Magazine: “We should annex Hawaii immediately. It was a crime against the United States; it was a crime against white civilization, not to annex it two years and a half ago. The delay did damage that is perhaps irreparable; for it meant that at the critical period of the islands’ growth the influx of population consisted, not of white Americans, but of low cast laborers from the yellow races.”

    The similarity between Indian reservations and the Nazi concentration camps is the farthest thing from the American mind even though the Jewish Holocaust was American history repeating itself. How so? On October 17, 1941, Adolph Hitler said, “As for the natives, we’ll have to screen them carefully. The Jew, that destroyer, we shall drive out…There’s only one duty: to Germanise this country by the immigration of Germans, and to look upon the natives as Redskins”.

    The horrifying thing about Hitler is that he was emulating American history.

    As a youngster, Hitler’s favorite game to play outside was cowboys and Indians. Tales of the American West were very popular among boys in Austria and Germany. Books by James Fenimore Cooper and especially German writer Karl May were eagerly read and re-enacted. May, who had never been to America, invented a hero named Old Shatterhand, a white man who always won his battles with Native Americans, defeating his enemies through sheer will power and bravery. Young Hitler read and reread every one of May’s books about Old Shatterhand, totaling more than 70 novels. He continued to read them even as Führer. During the German attack on the Soviet Union he sometimes referred to the Russians as Redskins and ordered his officers to carry May’s books about fighting Indians.

    Maybe the United States should pass a law against denying the genocide perpetrated against Native Americans.


    A good article by Dennis W. Zotigh (Kiowa/San Juan Pueblo/Santee Dakota Indian) is a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan and San Juan Pueblo Winter Clan and a descendeant of Sitting Bear and No Retreat, both principal war chiefs of the Kiowas. Dennis works as a writer and cultural specialist at the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian in Washington, D.C.

  • Jim.

    Perhaps by keeping the debate focused on Ottoman atrocities, they distract the West from the ethnic cleansing perpetrated under Kemal against the Greeks. Ferguson’s “War of the World” is a real eye-opener in that respect.

  • Willis Cook

    ” but concentration camps and gas chambers show no signs of rising up across the American landscape.”

    But not for lack of desire for such by the far left occupying our great universities. They promote their anti-semitism relentlessly. Unless academia is purged of them, they may succeed.

  • Jerome

    So, has anyone asked the Turks about an Armenian “Right of Return” to Anatolia?

  • Peter

    “What the Armenians suffered at the hands of the Turks and Kurds was worse than what the Palestinians have suffered at the hands of the Israelis.”

    The PLO came into existence years before Israel every “occupied” the West Bank and Gaza. The aim of the Palestinians has always been the destruction of the Jewish state. Thus, Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is not analogous to what the Turks did to the Armenians. Any right thinking country in the world would act exactly the same as Israel if threatened with the same terrorism.

  • M.Bor

    Hi, D.Pickett,

    Indians of West in general is Turkish nation, with an important difference: Western powers could never colonized Turkish nation, despite all their efforts, and were defeated by great Ataturk at Gallipoli in 1915 and in Anatolia later, dictating them the Treaty of Lozan which is the only treaty dictated to the Western powers against their will for the last 200 years. That is why all the Turkish sufferings are ignored on the hands of West imperialism and its some Ottoman subject collaborators, and sufferings of their collaborators are promoted, while their own crimes against humanity all over the places including N.America are made on purpose hidden. There are some scientific evidences that Native American are cousins of Turks, and hence that is why our destiny might have similarities, who knows. We have to unite forces and work together to defend historical rights of our common ancestors. Drop me a line when you have time. Good luck.

  • Elis Beddau

    I would just like to point out that the very guy who created and coined the term “genocide” had the Armenian Genocide specifically in mind as an example. ( The Turks have absolutely no ground to stand upon.

  • Elis Beddau

    @ M. Bor

    The equivalent of Native Americans in Anatolia are the Armenians (and Assyrians, Greeks, Laz, etc.), but most definitely not the Turks. The Turks colonised the area beginning in the 11th century, pushing Armenians onto the most marginal land in the area. The modern nation of Armenia is basically a reservation – Barren mountainous land, just like the land that Native Americans have in the United States. Meanwhile, the Turkic colonisers took the better parts of Anatolia, such as Cilicia.

  • mike

    Its amazing the Turkish influence around the world. This country has been attacked by almost every country in Europe. Countries 10,000 -15,000 kilometres away such as Australia and New Zealand has also taken part to bring the Turkish nation down together with the British. Yet this mighty country is still standing.

    I have not seen France sending an envoy for the Palestinian cause, nor Belgium, nor Armenians, nor Germans, Nor British.

    I have not seen any European countries retaliate against Serbia for the genocide committed against the poor Bosnians.Why is that. Why do all the people above arue about what happened duringa controversila time of war when everyone man and his dog was trying to geta piece of Turkey.

    Why doesnt any of the idiots above speak aboout the genocie in Bosnia and what could have been done by these countries that insist Turkey committed genocide . Why didnt they prevent the genocide committed in their front yard and just watch.

    All the hypocrits above, Turkey has not ever been defeated and never will. Its progressing with a purpose and playing an important role in promoting peace while the idiotic nations like france, armenia, swiss, greeks, serbs continue to incite hatred.

    A 13 year old turkihs school boy was persecuted for denying the Armenian Genocide.

    what abunch of idiots are we dealing with in this day and age.

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