“What the Malaysian Airlines Tragedy Really Means”
You have no idea–yet–what the crash means. Don’t try to use this tragedy to move your warmongering agenda before we actually get all the facts.
And this, ladies and gents, is why you should read a post before commenting on it.
And your point is?
My point is that one does not enhance one’s credibility by qualifying the following as “warmongering”:
What has happened today is certainly a tragedy in human terms, but we need not, and should not, allow emotions to misguide us into making it into a political tragedy as well. If we’re not going to go to war over Crimea or Ukraine, we should certainly not stumble in that direction because some nitwit thug in eastern Ukraine mistakenly shot down a civilian aircraft with a weapon he never should have been given in the first place.
His point is that Garfinkle did not say, suggest, imply, or otherwise intimate that US military action in Ukraine is necessary or desirable. Since you rather ludicrously refer to his “warmongering agenda,” it is reasonable to assume that, to be charitable, you did not read it, to be uncharitable, your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.
Or that he’s an SVR troll. Any post here regarding Russia these days attracts them like flies.
Right said, Fred.
His point is that the entire article is about not overreacting to it. It is the opposite of war mongering. So you either didn’t read the article, or can’t read very well.
I’ve upvoted your comment, only because you’re so aggressive and it’s so comically embarrassing. I hope many people read it as a cautionary tale. Or that it at least brightens their day a bit.
So Garfinkle just ‘knows’ who shot down the Malaysian airliner. I guess he ‘knows’ it by his keen deductive abilities.
The fact is that this man does not really know who brought down Flight 800 over Long Island in ’96. Oh, maybe he can parrot the official party line about that tragedy but that’s about it.
Seeing as one of the rebels was bragging about it on facebook before he realized it was a passenger plane, and that we now also have recoredings of top rebel leaders discussing it and acknowledging they mistook it for a miltary jet, I think it is pretty obvious to any reasonable person.
Forgive my skepticism, but there was also government supplied ‘evidence’ for the Tonkin Gulf and Iraq having nuclear weapons. REmember?
And Kosovo. Supposedly there was thousands being killed to justify U.S. bombing campaign that change international borders. Unfortunately, we learned after the fact hat no genocide was being committed. It was U.S.propaganda.
Ditto the lies about Libya, a country which Mead now reports is sliding into a failed state and is begging for help.
Oh yes, and who can forget the infamous lie: “If you like your health insurance, you can keep it. Period.”
And don’t even get me started on the moon landing!
This isn’t just circumstantial evidence. The rebels were literally bragging about it openly for the entire world to see until they realized it wasn’t the military.
The rebs probably shot the plane down … by mistake.
But it doesn’t alter my point that the U.S. government is untrustworthy and whatever it says cannot be taken at face value but instead has to be thoroughly examined with a skeptical mind.
Russia is wealthier than the Soviet Union was. So in some ways Russia is stronger not weaker than the Soviet Union.
“Russia” is a criminal, gangster state. Criminal bosses are always wildly popular with their gangs, until they are shot and replaced by new bosses.
I’m with you man.
In economic and military power and influence on the global stage, they are dramatically weaker. Putin is incredibly popular though, no doubt about that.
I’m with you on military and political power, but economic power? They have Europe economically by their privates to some degree from what I can tell. Look at how Germany has cozied up with the dictator.
But they are still much weaker than during Soviet times. It all boils down to one thing, natural gas and oil. Europe being dependent on Russia is nothing new, so it isn’t as if it is new power gained by Russia. But in other economic areas, Russia lags far behind relative to the U.S. as to where it once was.
As far as weaker or stronger, it depends.
Those are comparative judgements. Compared to the old Soviet Union, Russia is stronger. Compared to the rest of the world, Russia is weaker.
As of Jan, 2014 the last 19 ICBM test launches have failed. Their conventional military is mostly scrap metal targets. Russia is buying drones from Israel because they don’t have the tech to make their own.
Export oil and natural gas on an emergency basis…problem solved.
They are but this president won’t challenge them. Consider how I believe we would bungle that as much as he has bungled everything else that provides me a source of comfort.
Yeah he is at 80%, depending on what you believe. But he did it by opening up economic ties, he embraced the free market. The RUssian economic sstem is based upon selling energy to Europe, they also signed a huge deal to provide oil and natural gas. We are now in a position to supplant that market with our own supplies. But Obama is standing in the way with his global warming policies. If ever there was a chance to open up markets this is it. Provide jobs for Americans and supplant the ONE SINGLE MUSCLE Putin has on Europe.
Yes, which is something most of the West doesn’t understand. Russia is at war, not just Pootie.
“What present paper” means ?
That this paper is not professional: How can someone pretend that Russia shot down this plane?
Does one even know that Putine’s plane flew near-by the downed plane barely 35 minutes before on a reciprocal track? Kiev is a far better guilty candidate and I bet that investigations will probably show that it was not due to a ground-to-air missile but an air-air missile, fired by Kiev airplanes… !
No…! Leisurely making horticulture, one knew everything even before event occurred ! One deeply insists upon 1983 tragedy into which US responsability was not Zero; But one omitted to remind that few years later a Middle-East jet liner has been shot down by an american Aegis ship……..!!!!
This attitude is very typical of present american extreme arrogance – America cannot be wrong, whatever matter is – based upon historical world domination (disputed from 1945 to 1992, then alone since). But these american “thinkers” do not yet realize what everybody else has realized, that America’s domination is now ended for ever: History is plentyful of powerful Empires which surrender their domination soon or later. Their economy, now based upon information (ie a bubble which can burst anytime) and not production, the many jobless, 33% of US population is now very close to poverty and so on. Present hystery about fracking shows how much american felt their industrial power was fragile, but this gas may not last long… That is for economics.
Concerning politics, the disaster is evident across moderate US media, no need to comment: 2008-2016 is the US Foreign Policy Dark Age: Instead of targetting the world wide real growing Enemy, they perpetuate the old Cold War game… this game is over for 30 years…..
Attributing to Ukraine’s government such unbelievable stupidity as attempting to shoot Putin’s plane, reveals a lot about your intellectual capacity.
Perhaps yours is limited. Only Kiev has an outstanding reason to kill Putin, because this would eliminate the only world opponent to Obama policy. Please demonstrate your point of view.
When you get your news from Russia’s state-run media you end up defending your dictator. Please look for a better news source.
Thanks for your comments comrade- we’ve heard Putin’s propaganda before but you put it nicely…
The US/EU/NATO itself has a some culpability in the shoot-down of the Malaysian airliner (although God knows what it was doing in a war zone) because they supported and maybe engineered the coup d’etat that removed the only democratically elected government the Ukraine has had. The junta that followed was not one “whose basic characteristics include a high regard for democracy, respect for the political rights of minorities (toleration, we call it), and a concern for broad-based prosperity dependent on the generation of real economic growth.” In fact it was and is just the opposite. It is a thoroughly anti-democratic, racist, corrupt crony-capitalist oligarchy. Members of Poroshenko’s regime are openly calling for ethnic cleansing of Russians from the east.
Considering who we are supporting, you have to wonder if any Western government supports any of the items in your quote. I personally doubt it.
Russia’s (not just Putin) minimum goal is to prevent Ukraine’s integration into the West. They are happy to continue the US/EU/NATO caused chaos to that end.
It can’t be called a coup d’etat if it was 100% legal constitutionally and was done by an elected civilian government, and not the military or police.
Stop reading Russian propaganda. Yanukovych’s own Russian-speaking party voted to impeach him, and because of that they were able to legally remove him from office.
The process was absolutely illegal and unconstitutional. None of the required processes were followed. Just as in the recent pseudo-election non of the required constitutional and legal requirement were followed. In fact, Yanukovych is still the legitimate President of the Ukraine and still the only democratically elected President of the Ukraine.
They needed an overwhelming vote from parliament and got it because his own part turned against him. If he would have stayed in Kyiv, he probably could have dragged in on a bit longer, but instead of facing the criminal charges he fled and refused to fulfill his duty as President. He was rightfully impeached.
No, no they don’t. They did not supply the arms needed to do so, they did not send the troops into the Ukraine. If anything Obama would have culpability but even I am not going to accuse him of that. Put down Pravda.
This is just another way of saying to Ukrainians, “Freedom for me but not for thee.” Realpolitik is such a smug, orderly way of looking at the world. Because Ukrainians share racial and political history with “the Rodina” they’re supposed to be satisfied with having their political lives constrained by a thug, presiding over a wretch of a nation that has been rolling around drunk in a ditch with a bottle of vodka in its hands for well more than a century, and a history that includes a murderer’s row of despots dating back to and beyond Ivan the Terrible. Tell you what, Mr. Garfinkle, why not take your ideas about how to pacify that beast to Ukraine itself, and trying living there on the ground with the consequences. And tell Igor we all said “hi.”
In the case of the Ukraine, they have had relative democracy for a few years now. And they have also fought back against the Russians. It was not until they were making progress throwing out the proxy Russian military that his happened. But it was unintended I do believe. But the Russian mercenaries that were supplied for Putin are guilty of cold blooded murder.
This was not a tragedy, it was an attack. It had tragic consequences for those killed.
ANd many others. This was a blatant effect of Russian imperialism. And for those on the left who want to campare Rusia to us. Tell me something how many nations do we annex with no intent to leave?
I’m eager to read the update to this polemic when the next Malaysian airliner is destroyed.
It will not be necessary Malaysian. The Russians seems to be shooting down planes of any airline, pretty indiscriminately.
Why not? War is bad but there are worse things. Such as craven cowards crawling on their bellies to avoid a war that is inevitable. Your cowardice encourages war.
I don’t know what your point is to be honest. SOmething about crawling on bellies and war. Okay…whatever.
War is not just inevitable but ongoing. Pretending it isn’t there doesn’t make it go away. That didn’t work when you were two and scared of the boogieman under your bed. It won’t work now.
Pootie and his cronies think the Soviet Union should have won the cold war, that the opportunity to defeat NATO on the battlefield was missed.
Pootie and Friends are trying to restore the Soviet Empire with the goal of creating a new opportunity. In their mind, they won’t miss that opportunity this time.
This comes from a speech Pootie gave at the Russian Military Academy early this century.
Right now Pootie is picking the low hanging fruit. Georgia, the Ukraine, next are the Baltic states.
IMHO, the USA has no direct interests in defending such countries. That doesn’t matter. I’m a boomer and will be dead soon. As in any day now.
What matters is that the millenials think so. The Millenials see that their future has been mortgaged for the absurd notion that global peace is possible and the path to that global peace is the UN and the USA.
It is a scam. Americans go without health care so we can defend some foreigner? Not any more. Millenials will be over 50% of the population by 2020.
So what matters is what they think.
As I type, young men without fathers (crips) are hunting young men with fathers (cops). America has problems of it’s own. We no longer have the need or ability to solve the problems of others. So Russia will keep expanding. The only way to stop them is by nuking Moscow.
That is best done by selling nukes to Poland, Finland and the Baltic states. One nuke on Morcow and the Russians are finished. Russia will fracture. Every Col will take his troops and try to create a new Russia. Just like Pootie is doing.
The “un-uniformed” part is subject to debate. There is plenty of evidence that a significant number of “separatists”–particularly among the leadership, the people giving the orders–are really Russian GRU agents and even members of the Russian regular army which have been sent incognito into Ukraine. Their lack of uniforms does not make them any less a part of the Russian military.
Its even more than that…the person bragging about shooting it down was a particular GRU person. There are several phone calls intercepted that said that people from Moscow wanted the black boxes. In this case it is exactly what it looks like. The Russians gave weapons to people they trained. ANd those people shot down an airliner with 298 people on board.
Which side benefits from this tragedy? Certainly not the eastern Ukraine and Russia. Which side has already demonstrated that it will go to any length to win? Not hard to figure out, folks.
100% accurate, as is everything viewed through the historical rear view mirror. Had this been a Ukrainian military transport, the separatists of the eastern Ukraine, and Russia, would certainly have profited.
Thanks for your comments comrade… Does Putin pay well?
I am so sorry that attending public school destroyed your ability to think rationally, or think at all.
So, you think parroting Putin’s propaganda passes as ” rational thinking”? I guess when you get you political views from Russia’s state-owned media you have a different definition of rational….
Let’s see — the individuals involved used a sophisticated air defense battery capable of shooting down an aircraft flying at 33,000 feet. Said individuals had to have been trained in the use of this system — it’s not like you or I can turn it on, acquire a target, and shoot. We see the battery in place in photographs, see the claims of use, and then, suddenly — nothing.
I’d say people who have these kinds of systems are acting at the behest of a state, and that state needs to be brought to heel. This is a civilian airliner, transponder operational, flying a route designated for civilian aircraft. It was shot down, an American killed. We better be involved.
be careful…what you said EXACTLY matches OUR military that shot down an Iranian passenger jet with women and children in the late 80s….
Yes but we admitted our error, so you see Putin doing anything resembling that. Is one worse than the other? I would say that trying to hide the evidence of this crash says something about Putin.
Good article, but I disagree with its conclusions. If we look at the history of Russian leaders a clear pattern emerges: They push Russian expansion until someone stands in their way. Putin fits perfectly into this mold and will continue aggression with his neighbors until he is convinced otherwise. President Obama makes a mistake, in my opinion, when he immediately announces that military options are “not on the table”. I don’t neccesarily advocate a military response to Putin’s current endeavors, but why on earth would we tell him that? Putin respects strength, we must project it.
It was the US State Department & their EU running-poodles who subverted & suborned Ukraine, not Russia. The innocent passengers aboard MH17 are just collateral damage in the West’s hegemonic global agenda.
It was a mistake.That much is clear from the cell phone intercepts. We shouldn’t let one mistake lead to another, much, much bigger mistake.
Let’s bury the dead and see what we can learn from it, not what we can make of it.
2 Malaysian jets shot down in 2 months?
Forget Putin, someone is killing Malaysians………….
I agree with the last paragraph, which is important. IF Obama has any desire to bring estranged allies together this is the perfect opportunity. Of course it is an opportunity that has been crying for exploration since Russia annexed Crimea.
As most of you know I am a pretty conservative guy, so I want to make my next statement very, very clear. I do not believe there is anything we could have done as a nation to prevent this from happening. As much as I distrust and have no respect for this president this may be the one thing I cannot lay at his feet. He could have done more to support the Ukraine, sure he could have but he didn’t. Even so this tragedy, this act of war against civilized nations I cannot assign to Obama.
But I will say this in balance, If Obama does not take this opportunity to bring the circle of allies together he is the most ridiculous president ever. It seems that he has done everything he can to steer clear of our alliances but this is different. Even as I know it will never happen we are now in a position to supply Europe with the energy they need. This would collapse the Russian economy in a few months and bring them back into the realm of nations that respect international lay.
Unfortunately this president would never, ever do so, his global warming ethos prevent him from doing so. ANd that will be a lost opportunity.