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Blue For Who?
The Cost of a Minimum Wage Raise
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  • Seema Kaur Amrit

    Stopped reading at “WSJ reports..”. Rupert has made WSJ into Faux “News” of the print.
    See some real research by real economists you’d reach a different conclusion.

    • FriendlyGoat

      The same people who don’t know they’re being punked at Fox News and the Wall Street Journal also never seem to realize that they have been fighting “the culture war” for several decades now with Rupert—–except he was on the opposite side of what they claimed they wanted in society.

    • JR

      So the businessman that were quoted in the WSJ article saying they will leave the city due to minimum wage increase were lying? Or you are not sure, since you stopped reading?
      As a theoretical question, what do you think minimum wage should be? What should it be based on? What factors should influence it?
      “real research by real economists” I assume that means people who agree with your already pre-formed opinions.

      • Seema Kaur Amrit

        Real Economist-People who study economics and recognized and respect worldwide. Not some Kudlow, Lafffer or “some businessman” or some blowhard on FauX “News”

        • JR

          Hmmm, I recall watching many news outlets during the Obamacare debate. Only one channel mentioned opinions of experts that thought Obamacare made it impossible for people to keep their plans. Weirdly enough, that bit of faux news turned out to be the real deal. You have biases. That’s fine. But please don’t tell others that you are here to tell the morons who watch Faux News and read Rupert’s WSJ that they are idiots who are being fed propaganda.
          As for minimum wage, have you heard of an economics named Milton Friedman? Would you consider him an individual who at some point may have studied economics and had respect of people worldwide?
          And out of curiosity, who are these economics that you so respect and recognize? Surely, they must have easily recognizable names.

        • Proud Skeptic

          You probably don’t realize this but every time you use the “Faux News” thing you scream out to the world that you have no point except that ALL conservatives ALL watch Fox News and that is the ONLY source they ever use for information.

          You are broadcasting to the world that you have no point to make other than a totally made up straw man argument that has no substance or value to it. You come across as petty, petulant, and small minded…and, of course, not worth engaging.

          Keep it up. I love it when people try to make liberal arguments and cannot express themselves in a rational way. It helps the conservatives by exposing the shallowness of people who argue against our points.

          Here is your argument distilled down…

          FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News! FOX News!

          Well put! Bravo!

          • Seema Kaur Amrit

            Agreed although you misspelled. It’s F-A-U-X Quote N-E-W-S unquote FauX “News” (X is silent).

            CNN is boring, FauX is great. Why bore your audience with mundane reality when you can just make up news. War On Christmas! Tyranny! Just have a leggy blond coquettish I-like-shiny-objects failed-model woman deliver it.

            Just to even out surround her with some ugly dumb guys but who, unlike McCain, Kerry, are real war heroes. Just ask General Hannity and Col. O’Reilly about their tours of duty in War On Christmas.

            As biblesays “‘Tax cuts for me; Benefit cuts for thee -4.20 Paul (Ryan)'”

          • JR

            Still no answers to any of my questions about the minimum wage. One more churlish than I might suspect that you don’t have a well thought out argument other than your straw man attacks on news channels you personally happen to not like. i of course don’t believe that. I just see how some people might.

          • Seema Kaur Amrit

            I replied to you on minimum wage. Taxpayers should not be subsidizing walmarts employees. Any one who works full time should be able to support a family.
            Some on your side, Ayan Rand fans, for example, would like to see min wage of $0.
            The country had that 250 years and got very rich off free labor. Maybe a businesses should be able to buy and trade people.

          • JR

            Minimum wage jobs were never meant to support families. It was never their intent. You haven’t answered what government mandated minimum wage should be nor have you answered on what factors that should depend on. You seem to have ignored the question of marginal productivity and what effects might occur if minimum wage is set artificially high thus making some on the lower rungs of employment not just unemployed but unemployable (at least officially). What wage do you think people receive who have lost their jobs due to their employees not being able to afford to pay them.
            “The country had that 250 years and got very rich off free labor.” Poor grammar aside, the slave-owning South was materially poorer than non-slave owning North. Although I’m not sure how slavery argument is relevant here.

          • Boritz

            “min wage of $0.”

            It’s called an “unpaid internship” and Hillary Clinton loves them and shamelessly (how else) uses them to benefit herself.

          • Seema Kaur Amrit

            shame on her too.

          • JR

            I wrote this before but here it is again:
            Hmmm, I recall watching many news outlets during the Obamacare debate. Only one channel mentioned opinions of experts that thought Obamacare made it impossible for people to keep their plans. Weirdly enough, that bit of faux news turned out to be the real deal.

            Also, FauX News was also among the first TV channels that reported that the whole “hands up, don’t shoot” charade never, you know, actually happened. I guess they sometimes let real news reporting actual facts slip through.

          • Proud Skeptic

            Nice string of classic talking points. Pretty funny stuff. I hope writing this stuff makes you feel superior to all those “other” Neanderthals.

            All together, now!
            FOX News! Koch Brothers! George Bush! FOX News! Koch Brothers! George Bush! FOX News! Koch Brothers! George Bush! FOX News! Koch Brothers! George Bush! FOX News! Koch Brothers! George Bush! FOX News! Koch Brothers! George Bush! FOX News! Koch Brothers! George Bush! FOX News! Koch Brothers! George Bush! FOX News! Koch Brothers! George Bush!

      • Seema Kaur Amrit

        What do you think minimum wage should be? Zero? We had that for 250 years. The country got very rich on free labor.
        Why should taxpayers subsidize walmarts by paying SNAP and welfare to their full time workers. Anyone who works full time should be able to support a family. That could mean $10 in Arkansas, $15 in NY, etc.

        • JR

          I think minimum wage was, is and always will be zero. Because that’s how much a person who ain’t got no job is getting paid. It is very hard to say what a government mandated minimum wage should be. That question is best answered through the prism of efficiency wages. If it is set too high, you see the result we are currently seeing in Puerto Rico and Greece.
          You still haven’t answered any of my questions. I wonder why. Actually, I don’t.

    • Proud Skeptic

      Actually, thanks to places like LA there is nothing to do here but wait and see, is there? I’m glad they did this. No more theories, no more “if only’s”. We get to see the real effects of this in a real life laboratory.

      Within a couple of years we will know what the long term effects are of this experiment. No need to argue about what might happen. We will know, won’t we?

      • Seema Kaur Amrit

        we will see? There are already places where minimum has been tested. Raising min wage (within a reason) doesn’t have particularly negative impact on jobs and in fact could even improve the economy.

        • Proud Skeptic

          We shall see.

    • Fred

      Word to the wise: “Faux News” is one of those moronisms like “Dhimmicrat” “Rethuglican” “libtard” and “wingnut” that instantly disqualify the user from being taken seriously. They loudly scream “I’m too stupid to construct an argument and support it, so I’ll try to compensate by calling people names I think are clever.” Just sayin’.

  • Gary Mintchell

    This is a far more complicated problem than a simple “it won’t work” won’t work. I fail to see the panacea promised by those who wish to drive down wages. How does it increase national wealth to pay people less?

    Further, manufacturing jobs are not necessarily stable. Many small manufacturers routinely lay off people, then bring back, then lay off. My entire career has focused on manufacturing. I’ve probably seen all sides (now as a writer).

    But, on the other hand, politically mandating higher wages also flies in the face of economics. Each local company has its own unique set of competitors and markets. Yes, it would be great if enlightened management looked after all their stakeholders including employees. But sometimes the market just doesn’t support it.

    I would really love to see those of you with a much larger audience than mine raise the standard of discussion. What is needed is support of people who are trying to build businesses by solving one of the numerous problems our society faces. Engineers and entrepreneurs need to step out of the safe corporate fold and start solving problems, building businesses, providing good jobs.

    • Andrew Allison

      Nobody is trying to drive down wages. The discussion is about the impact of mandated minimum wages, i.e. increasing them. Common sense and Econ 101 suggest that wages are set by the demand for labor, not by government fiat. If the number of available jobs were growing faster than the number of prospective workers, wages would rise (it’s called supply and demand). Setting a minimum wage which is higher than the value to the employer of the labour can have only one outcome: a reduction in the number of employers or of jobs. The fact that US workforce participation and real wages are at levels not seen since the 1970s, and that all the net increase in employment and more in the so-called “recovery” are part-time suggests that there just aren’t enough jobs to support current wage levels, let alone higher ones.

    • Boritz

      “Engineers and entrepreneurs need to step out of the safe corporate fold and start solving problems, building businesses, providing good jobs.”

      Hope they get right on that. It is indeed what we need.

      • JR

        It would really really really REALLY be helpful if these engineers and entrepreneurs didn’t have to face the monster of an unruly regulatory state who makes it impossible for them to do anything and crushes them with costs at every opportunity. You can’t have both. We get the world we deserve.

    • qet

      Gary, what makes you assume that the goal of any engineer or entrepreneur is to provide jobs, good or otherwise? To a business owner, a job is first and foremost a cost. A job will be created and maintained only until a lower cost alternative appears–be that a cheaper human (e.g., foreign IT workers, whether physically here as at Disney or in call centers there) or a machine (e.g., automated checkout machines in CVS and elsewhere). An entrepreneur might create a job but will get rid of it as soon as he can. That’s the logic of business. A higher minimum wage just accelerates this process but it is not the cause of it.

  • iconoclast

    Seattle is quickly having to face the costs of their many feel-good regulations. Prices rising everywhere and fewer entry level workers. But housing costs are skyrocketing!

    What could go wrong?

  • CapitalHawk

    The minimum wage is nothing but an issue that leftists occasionally bring up to try to prove that they “care more” about lower income people than anyone who disagrees with them. They pick a number out of thin air ($15 per hour is the latest pick) and then go on and on about how that will fix everything and, of course, cause no troubles for anyone.

    Stupid conservatives fall for it every time because they think it is a real policy proposal. It isn’t. It is a signaling mechanism. A smart conservative response would be to say – actually, you are correct, the minimum wage IS to low and we intend to raise it to $10,000 per hour! I am assured by many economists that raising the minimum wage is very good for the economy, so we should do so without delay! Then watch the leftists backtrack.

    Alternatively, smart conservatives could start to propose minimum wages in certain industries that are known to be inhabited by leftists. Hollywood is a good one. First, say that any person that appears in any video anywhere should be entitled to a minimum of $10,000 (or whatever number you want). Then, watch all the rich leftists suddenly start arguing that paying people for doing things would “ruin their industry” or “cause it to move offshore”.

    Alas, if only there were such a thing as a smart conservative.

  • qet

    I brought this up in a thread a few months ago and heard only crickets, so I ask again. I live in a state where every level of government–state, county, city, town, village, school district, you name it–is solidly controlled by a Democrat supermajority and has been for decades. There is absolutely nothing–no Faux News vast right wing conspiracy dupes, no Republicans (woops, redundant, right?)–preventing any or all of these governments from raising the minimum wage in their jurisdictions to a “livable” level. They could do it today. They could do it tomorrow. They could have done it yesterday, last year or in 1990. Why, then, do we not have a mandated livable wage? Why, then, is our minimum wage much lower even than $15? Can someone–preferably FriendlyGoat or another avowed left-liberal–please explain to me why the unimpeded political forces of progress and light that reign here, that will never be voted out in favor or Republicans even if they were to nationalize every business enterprise in the state tomorrow, have not used their unchallengeable political power to put a livable wage into effect? Please? Anybody? Bueller?

    • JR

      Because mandated living wage is a myth?

      • qet

        No fair, JR. You’re not in the target demo for my question!

        • JR

          Because centrally planned economies with mandated living wages, large pensions and large public sectors ensuring everyone is employed tend to go bankrupt, and have tended to do so for thousands of years? 🙂
          I live in indigo blue Jersey suburbs of NYC. I think politicians that have a worry about being re-elected don’t want to mandate a “living wage” because they know causing a lot of people to become unemployed is not a way to win re-elections…

    • JR

      Well, here ya go. The number of people with basic econ finally fell to the point where “living wage” is getting passed.
      http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/07/22/yes-new-yorks-15-fast-food-minimum-will-be-a-failure-why-do-you-ask/?utm_campaign=yahootix&partner=yahootix

      • qet

        Interesting. Thanks. I always thought the “welfare subsidizes employers” argument was suspect, but I never before saw (because I didn’t look for) an extended discussion of it. But I see in there this point: “The ILO, a UN agency, found that collective bargaining has a positive effect on wages without much negative impact on overall employment.”

        I am looking at a page of Hayek right now that seems to say the exact reverse. Yet the Forbes writer endorses this statement. I suppose perhaps there is a lot of hedge in the terms “much” and “overall,” so maybe that explains it.

      • qet

        And then there’s this. http://twitchy.com/2015/07/22/physics-professor-gets-a-math-lesson-as-univ-of-calif-system-raises-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour/
        Reminds me of not long ago when the Harvard faculty who supported ACA because of propaganda about lower health care premiums were shocked and angered when informed their premiums were going up.

        • JR

          Minimum wage was, is and always will be 0.00. I do find it amusing when people who thought it was gonna be OPM (other people’s money) discover that it is actually going to be TM (their money). High comedy…

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