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Putinism
Why The Kremlin Has To Keep Lying
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  • nadodi

    Is America the custodian of Democracy and Order in the world? If the US is the sole remaining super power, can it stop the Chineese from building military bases in the South China sea? The US can only kill and bomb the weak nations. This is the mark of cowardice. The political scoundrals who run the US from Washington DC , the likes of Bushes, Chenneys, McCains are all the filths of the humanilty, along with the ISIS, AlQueda, Taliban and Boko Haram.

    • JR
      • Dan Greene

        What are you trying to say–that nadodi is a “Russian troll?”

        I must say, I thought the AP story was so weak that it raised more questions about the declining quality of western journalism than it does about Russian employment of “trolls.”

        • JR

          I’ve raised the possibility that she might be. There is no way to know for sure. Ultimately, I don’t care how many Russian soldiers die in Ukraine, so the whole debate is of very little interest to me.

          • Dan Greene

            “There is no way to know for sure.

            Yes, exactly. That’s why the whole “troll” meme is so absurd. Let’s assume that nadodi IS a “Russian troll.” She makes an ill-defined and unfocused argument that is unlikely to have impact anywhere in the English-language media. Whether she is a “troll” or not, she has to make an argument of some kind that is judgeable by whoever reads it–just like any other commenter/blogger.

            So there may be some sort of organized attempt by some entity(ies) in Russia to promote pro-Russian views in internet forums, but it’s impact–certainly in the huge English-language media environment and also given the insufficient numbers of competent Russian English-speakers–can’t possibly amount to anything very significant. I find the bizarre claims in our media about the threat posed by “Russian troll armies,” more disturbing than the possibility of the “troll army” itself.

            In fact, for someone who worries so much about “conspiracy theories,” you seem to be strangely preoccupied with this particular one.

            Do you differentiate in function between pro-Russian “trolls” and pro-Israel “hasbarists?”

          • Dale Fayda

            Well, you’re a pro-Iranian and anti-Israeli “troll”.

            Someone who posits their own narrow opinions as “holy gospel”, someone who constructs entire vast geopolitical realities in their heads and then insists that the rest of us ignore our own “lying eyes” in favor of your fevered imagination. Someone who thinks he can read the minds of politicians in minute detail (see your first post above).

            On that point alone, I’m here to tell you that you know NOTHING about what Putin thinks and what he will do next. N.O.T.H.I.N.G. And neither does anyone else on this site – we’re all just guessing. Well, all except you – you’re “preaching knowledge, son”.

          • JR

            What Dale said. I’m not in a Dan Greene mood today.
            Although while we can’t predict the future certain outcomes are more likely ( Putin will not de-escalate in Ukraine if he thinks vital Russian interests are threatened) than others (abandoning Crimea tomorrow).

          • Dan Greene

            I don’t wait for another commenter to be “in the mood” any more than you do. Don’t be a whiner.

          • Dan Greene

            >>”you’re a pro-Iranian and anti-Israeli “troll”.’

            So your definition of “troll” is what, exactly, Dale?

            >>”Someone who insists that the rest of us ignore our own “lying eyes” in favor of your fevered imagination.”

            When have I insisted that you believe anything, Dale? I state my views and make counter-arguments as seems good to me. Sorry if you find that threatening.

            You’re quibbling on my Putin comment. I’ve given my view of what he is doing and why and what the likely outcome of his actions are. You can reject that assessment, but that would take some effort on your part which you are evidently not willing to make. So you think my assessment is wrong? Then say so and say why instead of whining.

          • JR

            Nobody wants to play with you? I’m sorry, but I’m busy today.

          • Dan Greene

            See my response at the bottom of the string.

          • JR

            Nah, I’m good. Oh man, I’m here on the beach right now, and let me tell you, it is FUN!!! Even if water on the Jersey Shore is not as warm as it is in Florida. When I come home tonight and put the kids to sleep and the if feel like seeing what you wrote, I will respond to it. Or not. I dunno yet. This sun and ocean breeze is really mellowing me out bro…. The ability to use Internet comment boards utilizing an iPad while taking a dump has got to be one of those things that may not increase measurable productivity, but does make life oh, so much better! Thank god for Israeli companies whose tech is so important in proliferation of these delightful innovations. Truly, “all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” – Genesis 12:3

          • Dan Greene

            Good tactic, JR. I feel really provoked.

          • JR

            Thanks mate. Knowing that something I said or did has an official Dan Greene’s seal of approval is all the reward I, or any other sane person for that matter, can ever want, need or aspire to.

          • JR

            Summer Saturday. School’s out papí.

          • JR

            Can we just assume that whatever it is you are trying to prove is part of a vast Jewish Lobby plot?

          • Dan Greene

            No, you can’t. But it’s fascinating that while you find the notion of a Russian troll conspiracy well within the bounds of legitimate discourse, a question put to you about a similar allegation–the Israeli Hasbara program–absolutely enrages you.

            It’s OK for JR to suggest without evidence that nadodi is a “Russian troll,” but a general question put to you by me on Hasbara leads you to assert that such a question is, in effect, beyond the pale.

            That’s called hypocrisy (and illogic), JR.

          • JR

            Can we just assume that whatever it is you are trying to prove is part of a vast Jewish Lobby plot?

          • Dan Greene

            Well, you clearly want to assume that. If it helps you assuage your basic insecurity about the world and your place in it, then go right ahead. Anything to help you out, JR.

          • JR

            Can we just assume that whatever it is you are trying to prove is part of a vast Jewish Lobby plot?

          • Dan Greene

            Well, you clearly want to assume that. If it helps you assuage your basic insecurity about the world and your place in it, then go right ahead. Anything to help you out, JR.

          • JR

            Ok, read your rant. Here’s the difference. This will be explained only once: So pay attention. Ready?

            I said that it is possible that she might be a Russian troll (topics about Russia tend to attract those, much more so in Europe than here in the US), aka somebody who is paid to write the posts that she does. I’m also fairly open to the idea that she simply believes what she believes. I don’t know. I freely admit my ignorance of her motivations. I claim no monopoly of truth.

            You accuse everybody, including myself, to be part of a vast pro-Israel cabal. You insist that you have peered into the hearts of men, than you know for a fact whose loyalties lie where. You are convinced that you are right, never once admitting any doubt. What you state is the Truth. Those who disagree with you are not doing so for any reason other than that they are paid by someone to do so. You insist that anyone who doesn’t share your particular twisted take on reality is somehow The Enemy of the People, working against the will of the People.

            In short, I don’t claim that those who disagree with me are somehow 100% guaranteed enemy of the People. You do. And that is why I’m afraid we must part company for a while good Sir. You have been described as a pro-Iranian and anti-Israeli troll and it’s fair to say that’s the opinion of most (not all, never all) people here. That’s all the recognition I wanted. If I see people engaging you seriously, who knows? Nobody knows the future.

            And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. Exodus 33:19-20

            Because you disheartened the righteous with your lies, when I had brought them no grief, and because you encouraged the wicked not to turn from their evil ways and so save their lives, therefore you will no longer see false visions or practice divination. I will save my people from your hands. And then you will know that I am the Lord.’ Ezekiel 13:22-23

          • nadodi

            Revelation – Chapter 18. Please read this chapter in the Bible and think impartially. Tell me, which country on earth comes close to the “Babylon” in it.

            ————————————————————————————————————————————–

            And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

            2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

            3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

            4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

            5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

            6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

            7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

            8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

            9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

            10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

            11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

            12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

            13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

            14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

            15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

            16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

            17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

            18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

            19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

            20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

            21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

            22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

            23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

            24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

          • JR

            I’ve never read the New Testament so I have no idea. But I think that you think it’s the US. So, am I right? What tchotchkes do I win?

          • nadodi

            I’m obliged to no ideology, no organization, no entities of any shade. I express my views on events from an independent angle. The US is not my enemy, but I’m convinced beyond doubt that the politicians there are the fountainhead of evil around the globe in recent years.

            With regard to Israel, I always stood with that nation and always upheld its inalianable right to have its homeland where it is today. The Jews are a brave and intellegent people. They have been punnished over and over during the course of history for no crimes they commited. Any organization in the world that calls for taking up arms and destroy Israel is an obstruction to peace and must be crushed. People who understand violence alone must be dealt with in the same language without mercy. But I support a lasting settlement in Palestine with Jerusalem as the joint capital of Israel as well as Palestine.

            The Russia of 2015 is not the Russia of the Communist Empire. Vladimir Putin is not the cold blooded murder Lenin or the blood thirsty Stalin. He is a strong Russian leader, determined to keep the independence and identity of Russia. There is no intelligence at all to prove that President Putin intented to take back Crimea. Russia had the slightest intention to interfere in eastern Ukraine. It was the removal of a democratically elected government in Kiev through unconstitutional methods by a set of street hooligans and neo-Nazi radical nationalists that turned the tables in Ukraine. NATO kept on encircling the Russia and with the unconstitutional removal of an elected government in Kiev, it was dead end for Russia. Instead of building bridges with Russia, the neo-con political filths in Washington DC targeted Russia as their next nation to destroy. The US is no more the US, the great and noble founding fathers of that nation envisaged. It is decomposing day by day through the sinister policies hatched by the political criminals in Washington DC. In Eastern Ukraine, Russia will prevail because justice is with Russia.

          • JR

            I can honestly and truly say that I had no idea you and I would be agreeing on some facts when I started this exchange. I always thought eastward expansion of NATO to be a HORRIBLE idea. The idea that Crimea is not part of Russia was always ridiculous on its face. Russia is a great power whose interests must be respected. You don’t have to like them, but you have to respect them.
            I also agree with you that leadership of both US and EU has been sorely lacking. Whose fault that is…. well…. that’s the story for another day.
            Thank you for providing perspective that (and here you are 100% correct) we do not get from US media, whether it be left- or right- leaning.

          • Dan Greene

            OK, let’s see what you came up with…

            Hmmm.

            Well, that’s hardly a satisfactory response.

            You failed to acknowledge that you dishonest to imply that nadodi was a “Russian troll” instead of actually laying out an forthright argument supported by evidence. “I thought she might be a troll” is the response I would expect from a kindergartner. You do admit you ignorance (though it’s really much too narrow an admission) and that is one point in your favor. One hopes that you have learned next time to ask her to clarify her views before you start making insinuations of “trolldom” that are in any case unprovable on the internet and, as I pointed out, basically irrelevant.

            You failed to address my point that the concept of “Russian trolls” is absurd from the start since their impact can hardly amount to anything of significance and because the epithet is usually used merely as an ad hominem to dismiss arguments without having to counter them.

            You failed to respond to my point about the hypocrisy of constantly complaining about “conspiracy theories” while simultaneously propounding conspiracy theories that you yourself evidently find to have some validity.

            And relatedly, you failed to tell me whether and how you distinguish between the concept of the Russian “troll” which you evidently endorse and that of the Israeli “Hasbarist” (the latter unlike the former comparatively well documented.)

            >>”You accuse everybody, including myself, to be part of a vast pro-Israel cabal.”

            I said nothing about Israel in this string except to ask you to distinguish between “trolls” and “hasbarists,” which you refuse to do. I accuse those whom I deem to be more loyal to Israel than to the US, while being nominal US citizens, of disloyalty, and that certainly includes you. Get used to it.

          • JR
          • Dan Greene

            Yes, I’ve seen it. It’s an interesting piece and does suggest an organized effort. But let’s be clear. The detailed information provided by the NYT distinguishes it from your specious insinuation that nadodi was a “troll” simply because she articulated a view you thought was pro-Russian and is of a totally different caliber than the AP story you linked without comment (though it still relies too much on the source, Savchuk.) The NYT piece is worthy of further consideration.

            And of course my other points above stand unaddressed.

          • Dan Greene

            OK, I looked the NYT piece over at greater length and I’m less impressed than I was at first glance.

            The piece is detailed, but rambling and poorly organized and doesn’t make clear many of the linkages that it suggests.

            Most of the article is focused on the claims of Ludmila Savchuk who makes detailed claims about the inner workings of the “troll factory.” As I said in one of my first posts in the string, the idea of some sort of “troll” organization in Russia (and elsewhere) is perfectly plausible, so she may mostly be telling the truth. Again, as I said, so what if some “trolls” are generating posts?

            There is a problem with the Savchuk portion of the piece, however. Chen is rather disingenuous in the way he quietly slips in the fact that Savchuk went into the job with an expose already in mind and quit the day the expose was published and also that she had Ukrainian connections. He writes:

            “She credits her innocent appearance for allowing her to infiltrate the Internet Research Agency without raising
            alarms.”

            He should have made that clear up front, and it means that she may well have been inclined to modify or exaggerate her story. It’s also interesting, given the paranoia surrounding allegations of Russian trolls in the US media that she makes it clear that the principal function of the trolls was to post in Russian-language, not English-language, forums, which underlines the absurdity of the use of the “troll” ad hominem constantly against anyone expressing some view taken to be “pro-Russian.”

            The more significant part of the article is the suggestion that “Russian trolls” are actually working to sow panic and generate chaos in the US outside of the virtual world. If this is actually true, it’s a serious issue. Chen spends the first several paragraphs highlighting what he takes to be instances of this phenomenon. But here, the weakness of his writing is most evident. He gives us the scary scenario up front and then, way down the article, provides a very unclear linkage chain back to the supposed “troll farm.” The path is so circuitous that I find it hard to say whether it really exists or not. There may be an issue here, but it will require clearer exposition than Chen is able to give it. Neither of the two incidents he recounts really seem to have generated much panic, but still, it’s serious IF it’s true.

            Also interesting that “Internet Research” was evidently asked to leave the building in question because it “gave the building a bad name.” Either that is some sort of camouflage, or the “troll factory” was a very low-level operation.

            One final point: Does this conspiracy story make the NYT a “conspiracy website” (your term)?

          • Dan Greene

            And this is a brief commentary on the NYT piece that I’m sure you will enjoy entitled “Putin’s Hasbara Agency”:

            “Here’s an interesting if overheated article by Adrian Chen in the NYT Magazine about the Russian government’s hasbara operation employing Russians to post pro-Putin comments on articles. (The American prestige media is really getting worked up these days over the Comment Menace.)

            “Of course, the NYT article doesn’t mention the word “hasbara,” even though it’s the best single term for what the Russians are up to. The Israelis have been pretty upfront about their long-running, well-funded hasbara operation: here’s the expensive-looking Hasbara Fellowships website where you can apply for money for promoting Israel online.”

            http://www.unz.com/isteve/putins-hasbara-agency/

          • JR

            Cool. I’d love to learn more how I can promote pro-Israel positions on-line. And the article helpfully links to the Hasbara Facebook page. Good times!!
            https://www.facebook.com/Hasbara

          • Dan Greene

            Yep, these sound a lot like what the NYT article was describing:

            “The term “propaganda” acquired a pejorative sense during the first half of the twentieth century. Accordingly, British and American propagandists used “information” to describe their work and the positive-sounding word hasbara has generally been preferred in Hebrew. “Propaganda”, ta’amula in Hebrew, is mostly reserved for what opponents do, but the term was often used by the Zionist movement to portray its own efforts to influence mass audiences”

            “Israel is no longer solely reliant on its often ineffective spokespeople to explain its position. It is recruiting anybody with a computer or a smart phone to help in the campaign. The iphone and the ipad, Youtube and Twitter are the new weapons in the PR war. And as the internet grows, so does the potential impact of Israeli hasbara. As Hasbara becomes a grassroots movement, the very essence of the relationship between Israel and Diaspora Jewry is being transformed. Israel has lost the monopoly over its PR image, and therefore the sole responsibility. Israel’s image is no longer that of a country, but of the whole Jewish people.”

            Notice the implicit dual loyalism in the ToI article. And the Russians are pikers compared to this:

            “The secret weapon of this small non-profit is simple: a database of tens of thousands of supporters who will email papers expressing opinions in support of Israel.”

            See how far our discussion has evolved? We’ve gone from your unsupported insinuation that a comment you took to be pro-Russian was evidence of a “Russian troll,” to conclusive evidence of a highly organized Jewish pro-Israel propaganda campaign called Hasbara. Ah–the power of rational thought!

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_diplomacy_(Israel)
            http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-rise-of-digital-diplomacy-could-be-changing-israels-media-image/

          • JR

            We discovered that people promote the views they agree on using the Internet. And people write letters to editors talking about things they support?!?!?! WOW!!!! Incredible!!! Well, you discovered that. I kind of knew that was occurring. But I’m glad I was able to share this with you.
            So people who support Israel express pro-Israel opinions. And they seek like minded supporters????? WOW!!!!
            Thanks, Captain Obvious!!!

          • Dan Greene

            Yes, just think, when I first tabled the subject of Hasbara, you refused to countenance the topic. But, in the course of our little tutorial, you have been gently led towards the truth. Now that’s what I call a good day’s work.

            Of course, we’ve also learned that arbitrarily labeling conspiracy theories we disapprove of as “CONSPIRACY THEORIES!” while simultaneously espousing other conspiracy theories we refuse even to acknowledge as conspiracy theories is intellectually dishonest.

            We have learned that, haven’t we???

          • JR

            We also learned that according to Dan Greene if somebody expresses opinions supporting of Israel, they are a treacherous 5th column. When somebody expresses opinions supporting, I dunno, let’s say a country that chants things like “Death to America”, they have only American interests in heart. Once again, this is according to Dan Greene. These statements or ones just like them have been used by anti-Semites for thousands of years.
            But we knew these things already. I never denied the fact that I support Israel. I never denied that there are people out there who support Israel. Some of them are on the Internet, which is really weird, I know. I just find your assessment that anyone who supports views that you disagree with as a traitor to be pathetic. So I don’t think we learned anything new at all.
            Plus, there is such thing as accepted common knowledge. Like for example, everybody accepts as fact that Assad gassed his people with sarin. Those who claim that this didn’t happen are conspiracy theorists.
            Another example. It is widely accepted that Kremlin uses on-line tools to spread pro-Kremlin views. Denying that this is occurring is a conspiracy theory.
            Facts are stubborn things, aren’t they?

          • Dan Greene

            Yes, it’s true, you are a Fifth Columnist whose first loyalty is not to the United States. Well, some problems are too deeply entrenched to be susceptible of easy resolution. And as even you must know, no other country has our (American, I mean) interests at heart. The issue is to judge which of those countries can best serve our interests if we play our cards right. And the judgement must be rendered without subversion by ethnic and/or sectarian bias, which of course is just your problem.

            I must say, I find your deliberate misconstructions further evidence of fundamental intellectual dishonesty.

            And I frankly find your conformism to what you erroneously imagine that “everybody accepts” to be doubly disturbing.

            >>”It is widely accepted that Kremlin uses on-line tools to spread pro-Kremlin views. Denying that this is occurring is a conspiracy theory.”

            Sorry–I don’t even begin to understand the logic of that statement.

          • JR

            Ok, so you admit that you have a pathological hatred of Jews. Jeez, took you a while. Coming right out and saying it would have saved us all so much time. But I do wish for one thing though. I really really wish you knew exactly how much your opinion matters to me. But alas, some things are just not meant to be.

          • Dan Greene

            Obviously my opinion means a lot to you, as indicated by your obsessive need to reply to my posts. Several days ago, you said: “And that is why I’m afraid we must part company for a while good Sir.” And yet here you are. Perhaps you should see your analyst more often, so you can work out your Dan Greene fixation.

          • JR

            Well, a few days passed, I’m bored at work and I’m here. I just like making fun of anti-Semites. I’m sorry, it is a weakness of mine.

          • Dan Greene

            Ah yes, “bored at work,” “waiting for the boss to leave.” The need to invent excuses is part of your condition as well, I guess.

          • JR

            Whatever helps you justify your obsession to replying to me… I don’t mind.

          • Dan Greene

            Hmmm–I’m sure I’ve encountered that rhetorical maneuver before. Ah, yes–it’s called “I know you are, but what am I?” It was on the playground, as I remember.

          • JR

            You seem to use quiet frequently. It is almost as if you apply different standard to yourself than you do to others. Why do you do that? Do you think it is related to the same pathology that causes your irrational Jew-hatred? Or are these completely different illnesses?

          • Dan Greene

            “You seem to use quiet frequently.”

            ?

          • JR

            You seem to use IT quiet frequently. It is almost as if you apply different standard to yourself than you do to others. Why do you do that? Do you think it is related to the same pathology that causes your irrational Jew-hatred? Or are these completely different illnesses?

          • Dan Greene

            “You seem to use IT quiet frequently.”

            I’m still not following you.

          • JR

            You not getting simple logical constructs does explain quiet a lot. Interesting way of avoiding the question about your pathological Jew-hatred. Are you ashamed of it? If you believe in it so strongly, what is there to be ashamed of? And how did you gain the wonderful ability to know what others are thinking? How exactly does it manifest itself? Voices, visions? Please, do tell. This is a no judgement zone. I assure you that nothing will make me think any less of you.

          • Dan Greene

            All I was asking was for you to translate “You seem to use IT quiet frequently.” into English or at least tell me what you are referring to. No need to get so testy about it.

          • JR

            Why such avoidance? It is almost as if you are ashamed of your own views. That kind of self-hatred is a common character flaw of anti-Semites. That and your crippling sense of inferiority.
            I find it quiet amusing that someone such as yourself, who frequently uses the word “demand” when typing on-line, would refuse to answer a question. Intellectual dishonesty much?
            And if you are too dense to understand what I was referring to in the “you seem to use it quiet frequently” was your reference to “I know you are but what am I” playground taunt.

          • Dan Greene

            Oh, that’s what you meant. No, I don’t think I have called you out for it before. Perhaps I should have though.

            But I’m starting to get the feeling that you are having some kind of meltdown. I’m sensing a lot of angst. No doubt I’ve induced guilt feelings by forcing you to confront your essential disloyalty. That was rather naughty of me, wasn’t it?

          • JR

            Still avoiding the question. Why do you do that? Do you not have courage of your convictions? Does empty bravado make your cowardice bearable to you? Is that why you retreat to your own made up reality where your words and opinions have an effect on others?

          • Dan Greene

            What was the question again?

          • JR

            I will use your favorite method and copy and paste.

            You not getting simple logical constructs does explain quiet a lot. Interesting way of avoiding the question about your pathological Jew-hatred. Are you ashamed of it? If you believe in it so strongly, what is there to be ashamed of? And how did you gain the wonderful ability to know what others are thinking? How exactly does it manifest itself? Voices, visions? Please, do tell. This is a no judgement zone. I assure you that nothing will make me think any less of you.

          • Dan Greene

            Oh, OK, well the problem is your false premise. The guilt feelings associated with your disloyalty and Fifth Columnist activities (and I suppose the shame at being called out for them) is so painful for you that you are compelled to an attempt at pathologizing any diagnosing of them. As for myself, no I feel no shame whatsoever. Helping you to confront your disloyalty is reward enough for me. And no, there is no need for “visions,” “voices” or what not. Your condition is quite transparent.

          • JR

            What don’t you feel shame about? Please be specific.

          • Dan Greene

            “What don’t you feel shame about? ‘

            Anything.

            Except no, that’s not true. I mean, have I REALLY done all I could to make you confront your disloyalty? Possibly not. But that’s more guilt than shame. I think that’s a bit different than YOUR shame-inducing case where a character flaw–disloyalty–has been laid bare.

          • JR

            So I can say that “Dan Greene feels no shame for his pathological Jew-hatred”. That’s all I wanted to know. You are quiet verbose and intellectually dishonest in your attempts to not say things you are afraid will paint in bad light.
            And I never once denied that IN YOUR MIND I am disloyal. My argument always was, and continues to be, that you are delusional. So a man who feels no shame for this pathological Jew-hatred and denies that Assad used sarin gas on his own population thinks that I’m disloyal. Does that assessment have any effect on anything? Does the fact that a bum on a subway thinks aliens control the US government have any effect on anything? The answer is the same.

          • Dan Greene

            “And I never once denied that IN YOUR MIND I am disloyal.”

            That is a non-denial denial! Now you’re backsliding into that cesspit of Israel-Firsterism from which I have spared no effort to drag you. Ah dear–the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to disloyalty.

          • JR

            Since you just admitted your Jew-hatred is pathological, that makes all your conjunctions definitionally false. After all, how can we trust somebody who let’s his own hatreds warp his mind to the point where he can’t distinguish between reality and his own pathological fever dreams? But I am glad that we are talking about this.

          • Dan Greene

            “pathological fever dreams”

            And this from the guy who started this discussion by imagining that he had found a “Russian troll.”

            But I want to be fair about this so I’ll let you defend yourself. Whose interests do you without exception place first: the US’s or Israel’s?

          • JR

            My goodness, look at you demanding answers all of a sudden. Quiet a change. To answer your question: If those interests ever were to diverge, I would stand with the US.

          • Dan Greene

            So if this claim of yours is really true, then why is it then that when a senior Israeli official in the new Israeli government blatantly labels non-Jewish souls as inferior to those of Jews, you have not been willing to condemn him, his party, the government that employs him or the culture that produces him?

          • JR

            No, it’s your turn to answer questions. Is your Jew-hatred pathological in nature? Yes or no?

          • Dan Greene

            Just as I thought. When the rubber meets the road, we see your endorsement of Judeofascist ideology. Have you no shame at all? You have just demonstrated AGAIN your utter disloyalty to this country and the 98.5% of its population that is not Jewish. I gave you every opportunity to show loyalty, but you dashed my peace offering to the ground. You are the consummate hypocrite in the synagogue.

          • JR

            Still no answer. Does your intellectual dishonesty bother you? You demand answers while refusing to answer anything yourself. Are you an anti-Semite? Yes or no?

          • Dan Greene

            You’ve got my answer and I’ve got yours. And your answer is that you endorse the hatred of non-jews expressed by ben Dahan and others. Now I know for a fact that our interests are divergent and that you share his views.

          • JR

            no, I don’t endorse those views. there, you have my answer.

          • Dan Greene

            So what have you and other Jews done to demonstrate that? Nothing. If someone said the equivalent about Jews that Dahan has said about non-Jews, you would be condemning openly and demanding his ouster. In this case, I have to pull a half-hearted and barely credible response from you. Your hypocrisy condemns itself.

          • JR

            So every single time any Jew says something that you find objectionable, every single Jew must condemn him or you will just hate all Jews? And Palestinians openly call Jews things which are way worse that whatever homosexual souls nonsense you have. Nobody is condemning them or demanding their ouster. What makes you think that you are qualified to judge who gets ousted and who doesn’t?

          • Dan Greene

            No. Jews must condemn the racism among them in the same way they demand that racism directed at them be condemned. That is ABSOLUTELY not happening. As I said, if Dahan were a non-Jew in pick-the-country and indulged in language and attitude much less flagrant than this about Jews, the ADL and the rest of organized Jewry as well as you and many others would be screaming for blood. But in this egregious case, there is nothing and its far from the first time. I know how much racism and anti-goy sentiment exists in Israel. Jewish hypocrisy is not tolerable, so if they want to diminish anti-Jewish sentiment, Jews had better do something about it. Because with the internet this sort of shande far di goyim showcases Jewish hypocrisy. Totally unacceptable and stems from the same hypocrisy that allows Jews to imagine that ethnically cleansing Palestinians from an area in which they were a 92% majority is really oh-so-different than violence and dispossession of Jews.

            Bottom line: People are getting tired of the hypocrisy.

          • JR

            Well, I will let you defend yourself. Is your Jew-hatred pathological in nature? Yes or no? I’m sure you will find a way to evade answering. After all, intellectual honesty is not a strong point of those with pathologies.

          • Dan Greene

            No need to evade a false premise.

          • JR

            Not an answer. You are demanding answers while giving none. Let’s try again. Are you an anti-Semite?

          • Dan Greene

            There is no such thing as as an “anti-semite.” “Anti-semite” is merely a construct created as an ideological weapon. There is anti-Jewish sentiment that fluctuates like other animosities. Anti-German, anti-Chinese, anti-Jewish, anti-British sentiments, etc are the result of the divergence of interests between various peoples and the emotions that accompany those divergences.

            So the answer to your question is “No.”

          • JR

            Distinction without difference. Using your definitions, are you anti?-Jewish

          • Dan Greene

            Antipathy of any kind is not a fixed characteristic. It depends on actions–in this case Jewish actions. If I thought that most Jews shared your and ben Dahan’s sentiments about non-Jews then I certainly would be. Do they?

          • JR

            I have no idea what other people think. I do not possess your gift of clairvoyance. i don’t think the whatever the homosexual souls quote you have.

          • Dan Greene

            Yes, you have a perfectly good idea what other people.

          • JR

            I do??? On all topics? Sweeeeeeet….

        • nadodi

          Smiles…. I’m no “Russian Troll..!!” I’m somebody who his travelling around many nations as part of my profession. If you guys are Americans, kindly have the audacity to face the reality. I can say without doubt, the ordinary Europeans are more or less convinced of the truth that NATO exists to safeguard the commercial (both military-civilian) interests of the US on European soil. Well, the tiny states of the Baltics and a few of the ex-communist nations of eastern Europe may find some use for NATO as a protective cover. This too, out of their insecurity and not out of any genuine common interests. Europeans do not beleive all that comes to them on the TV, Net and Dailies are truth. They know it that the US media play to the tunes of their government. With every passing day, more and more Europeans are convinced of the fact that the US is using Ukraine to weaken Russia and to avoid a potential rival. So, there is no need for any “trolls” for Russia to influence the European public opinion. The very actions of the US around the globe are doing more damage to the US than any “troll” or whatever you may like to call.

          • JR

            Interesting take on the world…. It may even be true… I do find it somewhat bizarre that the first reaction of Russian citizens to any and all upheavals is to immediately try to exchange the currency of Russia into the currency of the US. But you know, to each his own, live and let live, etc etc etc….

    • http://chicagoboyz.net/ TMLutas

      Your idea is that we are cowards if we don’t move to open warfare with nuclear armed states. The entire point of maintaining nuclear arsenals has been to avoid great power war among those armed with these weapons. Quit the Dr. Strangelove act.

    • dwpittelli

      Re: “the likes of Bushes, Chenneys, McCains”:

      Don’t forget that Libya was Hillary’s project, and I don’t just mean Banghazi: the overthrow of Gadhafi was pushed by her personally, and she was poised to take credit right up until Benghazi.

    • Proud Skeptic

      Wow…this is a festival of incorrectly spelled words. My favorite is “scoundrals”

      • nadodi

        You must be a great teacher with a Masters Certificate in slang and filthy language to have such an indepth knowledge in those words. Thank you for educating me.

        • Proud Skeptic

          Nope…just grew up in a regular family and went to school.

          BTW – “Indepth” is not the correct spelling. It should be hyphenated as in “in-depth”.

  • Dan Greene

    >>”there is little apparent appetite among the Russian public for the “Novorossiya” project—the annexation of territory spanning southern Ukraine, which in some formulations could create a land bridge all the way to the breakaway region of Transdnistria in Moldova. The Kremlin, which runs one of the most sophisticated public opinion polling operations in all of Russia, has probably figured this out, and has in recent weeks startedtalking down the prospects for deeper involvement'”

    False. Putin has never wanted to excise the Donbas from Ukraine. The Donbas would be hugely expensive and it would take the large Russian-speaking population out of Ukraine, robbing him of much strategic leverage in the country. It’s the nationalists in the Donbas who want this outcome. Putin has to walk the fine line of keeping the Donbas nationalists motivated without committing to any support of secession. The Russian position that the Donbas should remain inside Ukraine has been unchanged from the start of the crisis.

    • dwpittelli

      But for what then does Putin have to keep the Donbas nationalists motivated, if he wants the Donbas to remain in Ukraine?

      • Dan Greene

        It is important for Putin the Donbas nationalists not be crushed by the central government of Ukraine and forcibly reincorporated under terms that would leave them politically marginalized and unable to play a balancing role in Ukrainian politics against the Westernizers. So it is incumbent on him to foster their fighting spirit and not seem to be simply using them for his strategic ends. Whether humpty dumpty can be put back together on terms acceptable to Putin are pretty doubtful at this point.

  • Dan Greene

    If you told me that, I would respond by telling you I think it’s just an excuse to escape an exchange in which you are clearly doing rather badly and likely to do worse the longer it continues.

    • JR

      So if somebody assigns a higher utility to spending time with their children vs. typing away answering you, that makes your argument somehow MORE persuasive? Okey dokey…. Please notice how I’m maintaining eye contact here, this is done to acknowledge our shared humanity. I’m just gonna slowly back away and close the door behind me. And before you can say, the pleasure has been entirely on this part of the table, TRUST ME!

  • Felix Keverich

    The thing about “Russian crematoriums” in Ukraine has been debunked as a fabrication. You lose what’s left of your credibility by trying to pass as a fact without looking for evidence or checking your sources.

  • TheBlogFodder

    The Russian trolls are in evidence I see. And have successfully deflected the comments away from the topic, which is what they get paid for. Spelling and grammar not necessary for the job, just the ability to lie brazenly. I assume Putler and Lierov can do spelling and grammar? Russia “broke” Donbas so they should own it. Ukraine neither needs it nor wants it. They just want the Russian-backed terrorists, aka Russian troops and the local thugs, to stay on their own side of the line and stop attacking Ukrainian positions.

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