“WELS is rigorously conservative on all issues south of the navel.” From whence does this obsession with gender roles in Christianity originate? I don’t find much in the gospels to suggest that Jesus was overly concerned with family values. Of course, with exegetical reasoning one can justify many beliefs. I hope Mr.Berger writes on this topic.
A party that that has this candidate, whose name is best not mentioned, cannot be called a rational political movement. The GOP dumped Romney because of his religion and is about to alienate a good quarter of the country that is Roman Catholic by allowing this nut to be a serious contender. It is the bigotry of her church that is the problem, and it will be dragged out in the case of her candidacy. The GOP legitimated this by attacking the President for his choice of congregations.
Jack, did you even bother to read Berger’s discussion on the “mutual bigotry” of Wisconsin and Rome before dashing off this excommunication request?
In the end, everyone’s a bigot re: truth claims. It’s just that we all draw our boundaries differently.
Prof. Berger writes:
“And any number of Catholic politicians have gone on about how they “personally oppose” abortion, but would not want to impose their view on others. (Assuming that they really believe that abortion is homicide, this is roughly comparable to saying, “I personally oppose murder, but I accept your right to commit it.”)”
“Murder” is a legal concept. “Murder” is the illegal killing of another person. Abortion is not illegal, at least not everywhere or in all cases. Perhaps a less rough parallel would be “I personally oppose killing of human beings, but I accept your right to do so…” for example, in capital punishment, in wartime, etc., that is, when it is legal to do so.
Barbara, are you claiming that a Catholic living in Nazi Germany should not have considered the killing of Jews to be murder?
We Cumberland Presbyterians locate the HQ of the One (of many) True (with all due respect) Church in suburban Memphis. At least Memphis is “Home of the Blues”.
Just another instance of priests counting angels on the heads of pins.
“Murder” is a legal concept. Killing may be deeply immoral without being illegal. It’s a simple idea, and I’m sorry you don’t seem to get it.
BTW, Kris, I assume you are familiar with David Kertzer’s work?
Barbara, most of us agree that some killings may be moral while others are immoral. We tend to refer to the second category as murder. We do this without consulting a lawyer. I do so apologize that our old and common terminology does not match yours. This is evidently proof of our ignorance and feeble-mindedness, and you have my humble thanks and admiration for your attempts to educate us lowly folks.
You’re welcome, but I’d prefer that you just send money.
When language is used as a political tactic, as in references to legal abortion as “murder”, there is nothing wrong with a small correction.
I take the semantic weight of Prof. Berger’s example to be a little more substantial than the metaphorical use of “murder” as in, say, “I could murder a ham sandwich right now…” I have no problem with tropes, but that’s pretty clearly not what Prof. Berger had in mind.
Do you you have a different term that you would prefer to use, instead of murder, to mean “unjust killing of the innocent”?
Completely enjoyed this article -had to smile throughout! I too just recently learned the meaning of chutzpa. I am a former Catholic married to a former Mo Synod Lutheran (both now following the ‘simple’ Christ of the gospels for over 20 years). May he be our head, no matter which denomination we fellowship with. (Hopefully True Fellowship! 😉 BTW, Barbara, several of us wonder of your preferred term in referring to the “unjust killing of innocent babies” as even Planned Parenthood used to refer to ‘fetus’ in the 50’s.
Thoroughly enjoyed this article! Love the chutzpa & just recently learned the meaning of this word as well. And for Barbara P, some of us still await your preferred term for the “unjust killing of the innocent” babies, as even Planned Parenthood used to call the ‘fetus’ back in the 50’s.
I love asking my Christian friends about this:
About 70% of female heroin users were sexually abused as children. (more details here: http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2004/09/heroin.html) Why aren’t you standing up for them and asking that the dogs of war be called off them?
Moral rot is not just on the left.
@Craig and kathy:
Sorry – I stopped looking at this exchange, and only just noticed your comments when I was roaming around in the new online format. And sorry again: I don’t have to provide alternatives to your politically shaped phrases. My point was a simple and valid one about legal terminology. If you two want to load up your rhetoric with lots of additional meanings (for example, “unjust” or “innocent”), go right ahead. I was not debating whether aborting an embryo or a fetus is just or unjust, or whether embryos or fetuses are “innocent”. I was addressing Prof. Berger. You don’t seem to have anything to offer my dialogue with him.