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Higher Ed Shake Up
Red Higher Ed Reforms Put Pressure on Carolina Blue
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  • Fat_Man

    Let us remember that UNC produced the mother of all academic cheating for athletes scandal, just last year. Their high horse can be no more than a pony.

  • Jacksonian_Libertarian

    The fact is that as with News Media the delivery of Education can now be done online, and this competition for paying students is going to get rid of every policy and practice (like Tenure) that isn’t competitive. We can already see the price pressures forcing change, this will only accelerate as time goes on.

    • fastrackn1

      Let us hope so….

  • Anthony

    “There is a lot of anti-intellectualism mixed up in all of this, in addition to some good old fashioned score settling.”

    Opportunity is shaped by access to education; sharply decreased legislative support for higher education may play well politically and socially in some circles but long-term what are national effects to access. See Steven Brill’s “Class Warfare: Inside the Fight to Fix America’s Schools” for additional perspective.

    • GS

      Attempting to educate the ineducable is doomed, no matter under what hiccualitarian slogan it is carried out. Under the normal circumstances, about 15% of the age cohort belong in college, the rest do not. We are sending to the colleges something like 60%. That 60% of necessity includes the left-shoulderers and causes dumbing down.

      • Anthony

        And your point is?

        • GS

          The point is: tighten the screws, and prune ruthlessly. Discard the liberal arts education model, use the vocational one instead. Let the students choose the majors [specializations] from the day one, and be trained in these specializations [say, mathematics] from the day one. No filler courses like “lesbianism in picasso blue period”. Pruning would immediately affect the list of specialties offered.

          • Anthony

            No general dispute here as all human institutions are fallible (in this instance education industry) and ideology aside alternative institutional arrangements are possible but we ought to be clear about direction. Improving access to education (quality) at all levels inures to ordinary Americans’ benefit (I think we both find agreement there).

          • Tom

            The question, though, is whether continually improving access to education A. eventually reduces educational quality and B. eventually reaches the point of casting pearls before swine.

          • GS

            We have reached the “pearls before swine” point ages ago.

          • Anthony

            We disagree though I am not sure of your dichotomy.

          • GS

            No, we do not find agreement here. Everyone with enough grey matter between the ears is already pretty efficiently vacuumed into the post-secondary education. You are talking about the access for those who – in my opinion – should be denied that access, after they are given their chance to fail the entrance tests/exams, and use that chance to the full. And the tests should be meaningful, i.e. difficult enough.

          • Anthony

            No, I am talking about Americans accessing an education in a model that has failed; your grey matter and all other propositions thereto are not at issue. If you want ideological compatibility/agreement, American education is not sector.

          • GS

            You are welcome. I am not an idukator, but I occasionally tutor [BTW, for free]. I have long made myself a rule to limit my tutoring activities to the right-shoulder tutorees only. All the others need not apply. And whether it is consistent with anyone’s principles or not, matters not. Those receiving tutoring from me receive a gift, a charity – and there is neither an entitlement to gifts, nor a hiccuality of them.

          • Anthony

            What is this really about (a response to education or an ideological point of view – no need to reply just rhetorical) because you have extrapolated beyond post.

          • GS

            Cast not your pearls before swine. Which I do not do, as I am not an animal trainer. And take an example from Confucius, who [by all accounts] was a teacher of genius:
            “If, on being shown one side of a square, the student does not come up with the three other sides, I do not instruct him any further”.
            And in the early Japan, too: they had tried to introduce the universal education for the high nobility, but then had to backtrack and in AD812 the imperial education edict “was rescinded on the grounds that ignorant minds are not easily improved and some had wasted many years without mastering a single subject; better to leave academic work to those who were interested.”
            The words to live by. The universal education ought to be stopped at the elementary school level.

          • Anthony

            I think Tom said that (Biblical reference); perhaps you intended to reply to him. Any thing else I choose not to comment on as I cannot fathom meaning, though K-8 education reference is generally accepted in U.S. in principle – but let’s end this. Good luck!

          • GS

            http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Media/Slideshow/2015/05/06/10-Public-Universities-Worst-Graduation-Rates
            This is what happens when a “college” has a 100% admission rate; although some of them, like Coppin State, claim to have 35% admission rate – and I shudder even to think what THEIR rejects must look like. And yes, some of that bunch has avg incoming SATs in the 800s. Graduation rates in the range of 9-15% over 6 years. If I wanted to find a better illustration of casting pearls before swine, I would be very hard pressed to find one.

          • Anthony

            GS, this is over; move on (world no longer waits – if it ever did).

          • GS

            The more it changes/moves, the more it stays the same. As if they have suddenly stopped casting pearls before swine immediately after our little exchange; they have not.

          • Anthony

            Sometime useful but definitely old saying: as things change the more they remain the same; I’m done here.

          • fastrackn1

            “tighten the screws, and prune ruthlessly”

            Exactly!
            College degrees should be focused on study that is specifically needed to prepare the student for the job the student is being educated for. Many degrees are drug out for 4 years, and a lot of the study never applies in the field. Students and society would be better served by educating ‘only as necessary’, not filling students heads with useless information so as to fill the coffers of our nations educational institutions….

          • GS

            Well, some of my education I got abroad, the rest here, so I am in a good position to compare. Long ago with the late M. Pickering from Princeton we published a comparison of the number of education contact hours [lectures/labs/classes/seminars]. It turned out that the training of a professional chemist in the former ussr took anywhere from 6 to 8 times more contact hours of instruction in chemistry and related disciplines [math and physics] than what the Princeton chemistry dept undergraduates were getting across their 4 years. [And a similar picture obtained in other disciplines]. Back there the duration was standardized at 5 yrs. So, there is more than enough good and highly relevant stuff to fill the time. But there were no studies of blue period picasso lesbianism.

          • fastrackn1

            What I am getting at is not about filling the time with more quality study, although as you say the USSR packs a lot more quality study in the same amount of time as an American institution and I believe that is quite true. My issue is that people would be better served if colleges would only teach what is absolutely necessary for a student to be able to do their job. A lot of what is learned in college is never used in the field once the student is working, even if the subjects studied were specific to the students degree. In my business (home building) I have worked with structural engineers when I was building in states where an engineer’s stamp was required for the framing of a house, etc. It does not take 4 years of education to teach someone (even with a 90 IQ) how to size beams, floor joists, calculate the nailing pattern for shear walls in a seismic zone, or the thickness of a concrete floor slab, for example. All the information needed to calculate for sizing, weight load, etc., is available in the reference books that engineers use. All this stuff has been done millions of times before so there are reference books that tell the sizes/loads already. Unless you are designing something that has never been done before, it is just not that complicated. The same is true for soils engineers and surveyors too. I work with these guys and I can tell you that it does not take 4 years to learn what they do. Now I build in a state where structural engineers are not required and do all my own sizing, etc., and it is easy. Despite the lack of engineer input in construction here, there are no collapsing buildings.
            The education system was set up by intellectuals over the years so of course they want to keep it as it is so they can keep making money and having people clamoring to be like them. If some degrees could be done in 3 years or 2 years the education system would lose a lot of money, so it is in their best interest to keep everyone thinking that no matter what you study it is going to take 4 years to learn it….BS…and I don’t mean Bachelor of Science….

          • GS

            i would not mind them learning more – of what is relevant. At any given time in my professional career I was using at most a few percent of what I had been taught – but I have never known exactly which percents would be needed the next time around. Hence the Swiss Army knife approach.
            Thus there is no problem with the comprehensive learning within the specialty. The problem is both with the unqualified students [“the ignorant minds are not easily improved and some had wasted many years
            without mastering a single subject; better to leave academic work to
            those who were interested”] and with the irrelevant PC idiocies being taught.

          • fastrackn1

            I agree that many students are unqualified for college. I am one of them.

            I bailed school in the middle of my Junior year of High School, started my own business, and have been self-employed ever since. My personality didn’t fit within the confines of school systems as they are structured, and so I was a problem since kindergarten. My IQ wasn’t the problem, I was just too independent and never figured I would be an employee so why bother with school. Then there are those (as you stated) who aren’t fit for college because of other personality traits like laziness, inability to focus, or are just plain stupid. For many reasons, there is a large percentage of the population who’s mind is not school material. The problem is that most jobs now days require college degrees. Not because college (especially 4 year) is actually required to do the job, but because employers require it. It is expected now days and it is unfortunate for the percentage of people who are not school material but go because they feel they have no choice. And the more our society corporatizes as we move forward, the worse the situation will become. We have become a nation of employees (college required) instead of small business owners (college not required), so now we have a big mess and there is no easy solution.

          • http://kgbudge.com kgbudge

            A liberal arts education is actually a pretty wonderful thing. I wish the universities were providing one.

          • GS

            I see it as a criminal waste, nothing less.

    • http://kgbudge.com kgbudge

      Given what George Orwell and Thomas Sowell have written against intellectuals, I’m not sure “anti-intellectualism” should always and everywhere be a pejorative.

      • Anthony

        Both have/had their opinions; often it may come down to who’s interpreting and for what interest.

    • texasjimbo

      The writer blindly avoids the fact that the faculty and administration of almost all colleges are dominated by anti-intellectuals. Conservative reformers are more like anti-atiintellectuals, aka, intellectuals.

      • Anthony

        Is distinction without difference readily apparent.

  • Josephbleau

    The Academy is honestly a great asset and strength for our nation. The academy had a high role in the victories of WWII and the cold war, the Manhattan project, production of steel and aluminum, Radar, and proximity fuzes, etc. Technical academics have cured disease and created computational science. We have gotten our moneys worth. There is noting wrong with teaching music and art, history, classics, and language to these students. I place a lot of value in speaking German, knowing the names of the tribes of philosophers, etc. I paid for it and got what I wanted as well as math and science. I think most believe this.

    The distraction is that if 60% of kids go to college and half graduate then it is just a pre-adult period of indulgence and party time. Hey, join the Marines instead and get staggering bloated every weekend. The problem is probably insoluble because everyone’s human dignity demands that they are as smart as the ones who can handle University and they can’t be denied their due. This results in the need for hopeful C level high school grads who start in engineering, Medical fields, and science majors to downgrade to the bottom of the totem pole after 2 years and become studies majors.

    Just decide to declare a human right to 3 funded party years before adulthood and be done with it. The 15% who should be there will still become doctors and scientists. But keep the kiddies separate from the real students.

  • mc

    Don’t forget the biggest campus jobs-for-progressives scam of them all: “sustainability” bureaucrats.

  • jvermeer51

    There’s a difference between being anti-intellectual and anti-intelllectuals.

    • GS

      Use “antillectual”. It sums it better.

  • NicholasBourbaki

    The American University systems is one institution that admired all over the world. Every country, including Germany, UK, France, China, ..are trying to emulate American University system. Conservatives, including Prof. Mead, look forward, with glee, to undermine this great american institution. Red states have nothing to show in this regard. Compare Texas and California. Texas, the richest red state, has couple of very good universities, Rice & UT Austin, that are at same level as bottom of UC system. at Davis and Riverside. That’s it. Florida has barely a CSU level universities. Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas,..have universities that are known more for being feeder school for NFL, NBA than for academics.

    Same thing with Newspapers. The New York times is admired all over the world. What’s conservative response? The Mooney Washington Times? FauX News?

    • Josephbleau

      You should really look at the published school rankings in more detail, you make some statistical claims on mean differences between “Red” and “Blue” factors that you cannot support with the full data set. The US News is solid mainstream media, You don’t have to believe “Moony” media.

    • Dale Fayda

      Vanderbilt (where I went), Duke, Emory, Furman, The Citadel, UC Chapel Hill, Centre College, Tulane, Washington & Lee University, Hampden-Sydney, Davidson College, Rhodes College, Salem College, Wofford College, College of William & Mary, New College of Florida, University of Virginia, VMI, University of Mary Washington.

      Want more, dingus? I know you wouldn’t be able to get into any of them.

      NY Times is probably not long for this world: http://www.thewrap.com/inside-new-york-times-chaotic-layoffs-how-jill-abramson-exit-hurt-female-staffers. Enjoy it while it lasts, ha, ha, ha, ha!

      • NicholasBourbaki

        Those are all fine institutions but..Just step outside the USA and name those institutions to Europeans, Asians, Africans, ,, you will only draw blank stares…Mary and who? Only salem they know is of salem cigarettes.

        You have no idea where I am and where I can get into.

        • Josephbleau

          I just have to say that the Chinese and Koreans and Indians know where to go for good schools, and they know all the names. they don’t go to China , India, Africa, or non- Anglo Europe by preference.

      • NicholasBourbaki

        It’s on internet, so it must be true. NY Times is far from perfect but it is among the best, if not the best, in the world. Step outside the alternate universe of FauX “News”, WSJ, Talk Radio, you will really see the light. Even a good red state as Texas, has Gov and a Senator (Canadian Cruz) who are showing themselves to be paranoid idiots.

        • Dale Fayda

          Ayeeeeee….! I have angered the mighty Nicholas! Oh, please wise one, spare us your wrath.

          Face it, lib – you were dismissive and condescending and you got slapped down hard with some basic facts. A simple Google search should have given you pause, but stupid is as stupid does. Ha, ha, ha, ha!

        • Dale Fayda

          Well, for starters…

          From 2001 to 2011 Centre College produced 24 Fulbright winners, 6 Goldwater Scholars, 11 Rotary International Ambassadorial Scholars, 3 National Science Foundation Graduate Research Fellows, an Udall Scholar, a Rhodes Scholar, and a Mitchell Scholar.

          In its “America’s Best Colleges 2014” issue, U.S. News & World Report ranked University of Richmond 25th among national liberal arts colleges. U.S. News & World Report also ranked Richmond second among “up-and-coming” liberal arts colleges, and as the 9th best value among national liberal arts colleges. Kiplinger ranked Richmond 11th among the “Best Private Colleges” in the U.S. for 2013, leaving three Ivy League Universities behind in the top 20. Richmond was ranked 8th bySmartMoney in the category “Best Private Colleges of 2011”, leaving two Ivy League Universities behind in the top 10. BusinessWeek ranked the E. Claiborne Robins School of Business as the 12th best undergraduate program in the nation in 2009. The Princeton Review named Richmond No. 14 for Financial Aid, No. 13 for Best Career Services and No. 17 for Most Beautiful Campus in its 2013 edition of “The Best 376 Colleges”.

          You tired of getting spanked yet, lib? I can do this all day….

          • NicholasBourbaki

            all the achievement or quasi-achivements listed are out-done by colleges in one tiny sate called Massachusetts or just by the University of California system alone (not even counting Stanfords, Calctecs etc. etc.
            Where are the MITs Harvards, Yales, Calctecs of the the south? Or any inventions matching those of Silicon valley. Now I know you are going to GOOGLE on your iPhone look for some obscure fact or quasi fact or reference to right wing bubble website or FauX “News” to counter this on TWITTER. There is a reason even the most educated conservatives stay stupid things. Like Gov Abbott (Is there a law that only a village idiot can be a governor of Texas?) and senator too but he is really a Canadian.

            Here is where the Red states outperform the blue states: teenage pregnancy, meth use, out-of wedlock children, illiteracy, crime per capita, hustling yankee dollar, the-so-called-free-states hog the most federal dollars, Praying before, after during the meal but never leaving any tip to the waiter ‘i-give-jesus-only-ten-why-i-give-you-15% god bless you.
            Even today if the red states were separate countries most of them (excepting Texas, Florida) will be third world countries.

      • NicholasBourbaki

        Just count how many of them have noble prize and Fields Medal winners on their faculty. Duke, UNC excepted. Rest are good too….in the USA.

    • stanbrown

      Since we know that the NY Times is an incompetent propaganda rag, the “fact” that it is admired by others in the world would simply be a fact demonstrating their ignorance. Why should someone in a red state give a flip how ignorant people in other places of the world are about American schools or newspapers?

      • NicholasBourbaki

        How is weather in FauX “News” bubble?

        • stanbrown

          wow. did you strain your brain coming up with that stupid comment? Or did you pick it up from one of your fellow provincial bigots?

    • Burn_the_Witch

      You can always spot a left wing troll because they think their cutesy spellings of Fox news are in any way remotely relevant or meaningful.

  • jim

    Every Republican in NC knows exactly what the typical UNC faculty member/administrator thinks of them. If you call people racists and fascists all the time, you can’t count on their support when something important to you comes along.

    Most North Carolinians think of UNC as a big hospital in Chapel Hill and a championship basketball team. They don’t care about teaching loads.

  • Dale Fayda

    Lame. Now you’re just nitpicking, trying to salvage a shred of dignity from being proven so conclusively wrong. Next time, don’t be so sloppy with the facts. You were arrogant and dismissive in your statements, like liberals typically are. Stick to the facts and back them up with reason arguments – you’ll get a treated much more respectfully on this site and in life.

    And I stand by my statement that you wouldn’t be able to get into any of the schools I listed – you didn’t think of any of them.

  • teapartydoc

    I am employed by a left-wing mid-western university. If the state dropped all subsidies tomorrow, I would just smile.

  • Burn_the_Witch

    I don’t think it’s so much anti-intellectual, but anti-pseudo-intellectual.

    Institutions of higher education in this country is far more concerned with credentialism than academic and intellectual rigor. Education departments serve as the chief collection point for the academic underachievers, whom they churn out in hordes of future “educators”. The humanities vacuum up the rest to train in “disciplines” which are mostly useless and founded upon reinforcing/justifying cultural biases.

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