The American Interest
Analysis by Walter Russell Mead & Staff
At The NYT: Clueless Blue Deer Meet Onrushing Truck

Schadenfreude alert: readers, and especially those who don’t much like the New York Times, should make sure they are not eating soup or holding hot liquids before viewing the video below. Uncontrollable gales of laughter stemming from excessive levels of schadenfreude may cause spilling and staining.

[yframe url='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTw0B_lmIHM']

New York Times staffers, like suffering proles all over the world, belong to a labor union, and over the years the union has negotiated a very comfy defined benefit retirement plan. The staffers love the plan.

But economic reality is intruding. Times management, perhaps reading the coverage in its own pages about the companies and cities going bankrupt due to unsustainable union-bargained pension systems, wants to make a change.  It wants to offer a defined contribution plan, instead. Workers and the company pay into a 401(k) plan, workers invest it, and when they retire, that is the amount they have towards their income.

It’s an entitled blue deer, meet onrushing truck kind of moment. The Guild is talking about a strike, and an array of Times staffers, including some famous bylines that are well known in news circles, worry aloud that the new plan could make them eat cat food and sleep in boxes on the street in old age. (Or late middle age, anyway; not one staffer talks about working past 65.)

Nobody in the video talks about the changes in the news business that threatens to drive the Times into a deep dive. Nobody talks about the prospect of future significant staff cuts if costs can’t be contained. None of them discuss the incongruity between their own naive sense of entitlement and what is going on in the cities, companies and countries they cover.

They just want the money.

Some writers allude to the prospect of leaving the paper if the pension change goes through, but a quick check of the newspaper business suggests they don’t have all that many options. Certainly with the exception of a handful of superstars the New York Times would have less trouble replacing its current staff than the current staff would have in replacing their jobs. And if those new jobs are in journalism, good luck finding a company with a generous defined benefit pension plan.

I sympathize with the Times staff about living in tougher economic conditions, but that is what people are adjusting to all over the world; I’m not sure what gives them an exemption. Newspaper reporters of all people should have seen this coming long ago, and have made savings and retirement plans on the assumption that their defined benefit plan would be going the way of the passenger pigeon and sooner rather than later.

If anything, their feelings of regret and chagrin should be tinged with at least a soupçon of relief. In the end, a defined benefit plan is only as solid as the company behind it, and given the turmoil on today’s media landscape it’s not at all clear where the Times will be or how it will be restructuring its debt 20 years from now. The good thing about a defined contribution plan is that you don’t lose the money if your ex-employer goes broke.

For readers, this is a fascinating and revealing glimpse inside the Times bubble. I am not sure which is more disconcerting; the deeply embedded sense of blue entitlement so palpably on display or the poor political judgement that led the union brass to think that releasing this video to the public would be good PR. Either way it serves as a powerful illustration of just how fundamentally out of touch many of the people working at America’s most famous newspaper have become.

I like and admire many of the people who write for the Times.  Some of them I have known for years and, happily, the judgment and sensibility behind this video doesn’t characterize everyone who works there. But I suspect that most viewers around the world are going to find this video funny and revealing rather than heartfelt and convincing.

Published on April 22, 2012 2:21 pm
  • Kenny

    Love it, Mr. Mead.

    Thanks for sharing.

  • http://web-logos.blogspot.fr/ James Brown

    “$350,000 is worth striking over”.
    I guess so. Wouldn’t know myself, but if someone at the NYT says it, it must be true.

  • David Bennett

    Passenger Pigeon? Was that a top secret, military program from WWII?

  • Glen H

    I would disagree only with your comment on the “handful of superstars”. In my estimation, they would be the easiest NYT employees to replace.

  • David Bennett

    Don’t you wish you could delete posts sometimes?

  • Dutch 1960

    Money quote: “The good thing about a defined contribution plan is that you don’t lose money if your ex-employer goes broke.”. If I worked there I would be lobbying for a defined contribution plan (401k) plan rather than the current DB plan. These people have no idea how “at-risk” their retirement plan balances are.

    Wait, the taxpayers have been known to bail out these things when the companies go belly up. Forgot that for a minute.

  • http://teejaw.com TeeJaw

    These folks might have avoided this if years ago they had stopped being so liberal and slanted in their news coverage and created a product more people wanted to buy.

  • asdf

    These are all very well known issues. What this illuminates to me is much more narrow. People talk about the “right to collectively bargain”. But what they really mean is, “the right to prevent others from taking a deal that I personally refuse.

    Even in its last days, the NYT is a plum position for a new journalist. There’s a line out the door and down the street of j-school students eager to add the Grey Lady to their resumes and who see the job for what it is: one of the best employment deals in journalism.

    In the normal course of affairs, the complainers would just quit, and talented, happy workers would take their place. Well, we can’t have that, can we? The complainers have a “right” to make sure that other journalists don’t work for the NYT.

    The best part is, considering that the NYT has always been left-wing, and in recent years has made the shift to full-on propaganda rag, they’re getting precisely the kind of business model that they’ve been lobbying for for decades. Hoist by their own petard. And hopefully their example will illuminate the survivors when they’re gone.

  • Jeffersonian

    The wagon of entitlement collapses under the baggage of reality.

  • dearieme

    I loved the dismissal of a couple of thousand dollars a month. That’s about what I get as a pension.

  • Occam’s Beard

    If enjoying is wrong, I don’t be right.

    Oh, and to Times staffers: welcome to the party, pal!

  • GeorgeNYC

    “They just want the money.”

    How is that any different from corporate management against whom they are negotiating? Why do employees need to be so perfectly self-aware as well as perfectly prescient whereas their masters can merely focus on profit?

  • bgarrett

    Middle age? 65?? Middle aged would be about 40 if you think you will live to be 80

  • Adjoran

    It’s amazing that whole swaths of the adult population – mainly the Democrats – are so completely ignorant of arithmetic and economics. I blame the public schools.

    They want it because they want it and just assume that “big corporations” or “the rich” have an unending supply of money which can be turned over on demand without affecting anything else. These are the descendants of the people who gutted the Goose that laid the Golden Eggs because they couldn’t wait.

    And then they ” …worry aloud that the new plan could make them eat cat food and sleep in boxes on the street in old age” like the rest of us will think that’s a bad thing!

  • http://www.pacrimjim.com PacRim Jim

    Sniff.

  • http://www.pacrimjim.com PacRim Jim

    As the great American philosopher Nelson Mundt explains, “HA-hah!”

  • vg

    [a pox on both management and labor]
    couldnt have happened to a more deserving group.

    I am relishing the thought of Mareen Dowd living out of a cardboard box with her worldly belongings in a shopping cart.

    maybe this way she will finally get [Grandmother Mead's hammer comes down on the rest of this sentence.]

  • http://edhesq@gmail.com edh

    Suggests to me there will be a tipping point in the NYT coverage that will work to the advantage of at least much of the nation running off the financial cliff.

    Expect self-absorbed NYT writers to continue reporting favorably on (in reality unsustainable) defined benefit retirement plans for government workers… right up until the time the NYT writers loose theirs.

    With that dose of reality for the NYT writers maybe there will follow “a heap’n help’n” of reality in their coverage that may help avert catastrophe.

  • http://radical-moderation.blogspot.com/ TheRadicalModerate

    There was an interesting interview with Joel Kotkin yesterday in the WSJ. ( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304444604577340531861056966.html ) I couldn’t help coming away with the impression that the California economy is running mostly on noblesse oblige.

    I kinda wonder if what’s going on at the NYT isn’t merely a case of the aristocracy getting a tad impatient with the serfs not performing their tasks very well.

  • JKB

    ” I blame the public schools.”

    I’m afraid with this group, you’ll need to blame the most elite private schools. They would not dare associate themselves with the public school systems.

  • Controse

    Who says there is no justice in the world.
    New York Times reporters threatening to strike if they don’t get their way is so close to a perfect parody of my two year old holding his breath until he gets his way.
    Please, oh please tell me. When will I ever stop laughing?
    P.S. They sure have my full, enthusiastic support. Where do I sign up to walk the picket line?

  • http://open.salon.com/blog/richard_rider Richard Rider

    The unstated assumption is that retirees should be able to live rather well on ONLY their pension. No other savings or investment should be needed, no spousal/SO pension or savings — no stinkin’ IRA for them!

    And, of course, they neglect to mention social security, perhaps because — in spite of their paper’s official claims that SS is on sound financial ground — they know better.

  • Lumiere

    Well, Roger Cohen could always go to work for the Iranian News Agency since he already spreads their propaganda. Nick Kristof can go and work for all those Egyptian liberals who were gonna run the country after the “Arab Spring”. And Tom Friedman can always land a job for the Saudis promoting a fake peace process.
    But then, since they all do these things for free, what’s the incentive to pay them for it?

  • Boo

    Despite having three Ivy League degrees and generally being able to “pass” as someone who travels in NY Times social circles, I was surprised at how much populist anger I felt towards the ignorant know-it-alls in this video. Someone really thought that this would help their case??

    Oh, and I had to chortle at the closing line, i.e. “Without us, The Times is just white space.” Judging from the diversity of people in the video, it’s already white space, with or without these clowns.

  • http://tomatopundit.com TomatoPundit

    “It’s a very ugly choice to stick people with,” says the man whose worldview comports not at all with reality.

    This is happening all over the country, including the unionized company I work at in California. Managers know the gold-plated health care and retirement plans are not sustainable (which begs the question why they offered them in the first place). Workers just want the money, and our union has filed complaints with the NLRB.

    As a conservative, I laughingly point out that “retirement” is a very recent concept, and that “retiring” at 55 is patently ridiculous. It was nice when you could get it, I suppose, but I’ve never believed in it myself.

    Schadenfreude, indeed, but it’s kind of frightening to witness — up close — the collapse of a worldview that these people thought was truth … nevermind the Liberal “fact” that “truth” is relative.

    The truth is that the truth hurts. It’ll be interesting to see what the “blue” model looks like when the dust settles.

  • Stacy

    “I’m not sure what gives them an exemption”

    Well, they work for the [...] NYT, that’s what. They’re special; don’t you get it? They work for an enlightened, liberal, lucid organization. Never mind that it’s suppose to be for profit and necessarily responsive to what that means.

    I laughted myself blue in the face listening to these pathetic, entitled, well-educated imbeciles.

  • Arch

    The NYT has been bleeding subscribers for decades. If you have been looking at their advertisers, check out the WSJ. In a year, expect to see their talent there as well.

    In 2002, NYT sold at $48; now it $6.34. As Mr T would say, “Pity the fool.”

  • The Olde Kat

    What a wagon load of cold, wet and smelly pig manure that video presentation is. The world of the defined benefit pension plan under ERISA has been slowly dying for the last 20+ years mainly because of the legislative changes enacted by Congress to force employer funding and at the same time restrict employer deductions. Couple that with more onerous administrative burdens for the sponsoring employers, there is no mystery as to why DB plans are nearly dead in the US economy. Young employees need to know to take charge of their investment choices and planning for retirement at age 67+ and to factor in the most likely scenario that Social Security will not exist for today’s 25-35 year old employees when they reach age 70. If such an employee is also saddled with crushing student loan debt, then the situation becomes exponentially worse. Today’s college students will be the ones that will most likely make the political decisions to terminate Social Security as we know it today in order to save their own lives and livelihoods later. In essence, the 40-55 year old employees are going to have to make due with a whole lot less in their retirement incomes as employers shift more and more to defined contribution plans and the old DB plans are terminated and liquidated. This process will not be pretty or fair, but it will be real and necessary. We haven’t even touched the effects of the conflict between the productive economy and its employees and the permanent and unproductive welfare entitlement class.

  • teapartydoc

    This is exactly how I would expect NYT reporters and columnists to react to such a situation. I don’t know if anyone reading this has read One Second After, the novel about the aftermath of an EMP attack on the US. In it the main character meets a female high-ranking advertising executive who is evacuating the nearby large city after civilization has broken down. In order to survive, the inhabitants of his smaller, more rural community decided to disallow any new inhabitants. The evacuees are told to move on. She tries every tactic available to stay. She is just about to come to grips that she has no value or skills in the new world in which she has found herself. These NYT staffers are about to experience a similar, but much less deadly fate.

  • Vinny B.

    This article is full of right wing praganda. The real issue here is how the Bush economy has destroyed many businesses, and the umber of businesses that survived 100+ years only to be destroyed by Bush is staggering. I am only surprised no one here has blamed the black president, because as you people always say its the black man’s fault. You bigots will run lockstep to vote for the filthy dirty cult member Mormon Romney because you hate that the black man is in charge. Bush destroyed our economy and no one could have fixed itin 3 years because Karl Rove made sure of that.

  • Corlyss

    The Federal Government realized its jeopardy in the late 70s-early 80s. By then, businesses had been migrating to defined contribution plans for 20 years. If the Feds got it such that they implemented FERS in 1983, pardon me for not feeling very sorry for a bunch of pencil pushers who really are fungible entities. Aside from shameless boosterism for all things Democratic, what does the NYT provide that you can’t get from the ‘net? Nothing.

  • Paul from the Cape

    Reminds me all of a third generation trust fund family, hitting up the trust fund lawyer to release the last of grandpa’s fortune so they can drive their Volvo 240 to the town meeting where they can lecture the locals as their frumpy betters.

  • http://glpiggy.net Chuck Rudd

    Nothing to add here besides, great post Dr. Mead. I hope this blue model series is turned into a book.

  • SukieTawdry

    Oh, yes, strike. Please strike. Allow us to demonstrate how very well we can get on without you.

  • Mike

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. These greed heads reek of stupidity. They have willingly followed Pinchy over the cliff. Destroyed a century old family owned business at the alter of PC and reverse raaacism. Their bias and hate filled vitriol has finally disgusted too many people and the political Yellow Rag known as the New York Slimes is now a laughing stock. Yet, these morons demand the same compensation and fringe benefits they would have received had they not destroyed financially the business they work for. It’s only a matter of time before these disgusting persons DEMAND Obama bail them out on a PERSONAL level. Of course, Obama may oblige in repayment for their years of [rear] kissing.

  • Leon0112

    The New York Times revenues have been declining. Management needs to continue to look for ways to reduce their costs in order to stay in business. To protect its defined benefit pensions, the Guild would need to figure out how they can help the New York Times increase revenues.

    Not going to happen.

    Management is just the messenger in this situation. They want to shoot the messenger.

  • Mrs. Davis

    Strike! Solidarity Forever!

    That’ll help the NYT brand. Interesting to see how many readers they have after the paying readers have sampled the alternatives electronically.

    And it’ll be so enlightening to see those who make $130,000 per year on the picket line explaining to Joe Six Pack why they should be able to force the Sulzburgers to go broke to pay for their retirement.

  • Dyson R

    Those employees should consider retraining and working in Hi-tech where innovation dries profit. NYT’s news hasn’t been innovative since the ’60′s. They deserve to crash and burn for working for a “loser,” instead of a “winner.” Can you spell APPLE?

  • George Dixon

    Whatever they were in the past….unions today simply add cost to labor.
    It is noteworthy that no pro-union advocate can offer a single reason why a company is better off with unionized workers….no increased productivity and no added value to the end product at all.

  • Tom Gates

    How about the Columnist who said she was told: 1/3 from Social Security, 1/3 from pension and 1/3 from savings. She questions the pension but never social security. In my financial planning practice we cut social security benefits 24% in 2026, the year the agency itself says its run out of cash and starts cutting. These are the people on the razor’s edge of societal events?

  • Greg Ransom

    Maybe the union can do for the NY Times what it did for the Herald-Tribune.

    A country without the NY Times would be better country.

  • The Fop

    When Leftism fails, the Leftists are left to eat each other. Tingles down!

  • http://open.salon.com/blog/richard_rider Richard Rider

    The NY TIMES will likely dump their defined benefit plan onto the government’s Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation (PBGC). So the NY TIMES DB plan may indeed largely work out for the employees — at the expense of OTHER employers and/or the American taxpayer.

  • Sardondi

    I’m astonished at the sense of unreality shown by every single one who appeared. Where have they been? They seem to think that they’re exempt from economic hardship or hard choices about the future. If ever you want to see liberal entitlement in action, watch this.

    What spoiled, selfish children.

  • MWBklynNY

    I’m in my late 50′s and I remember a long time ago when NYC had a number of daily newspapers. Of course the Herald Tribune, but the Sun, The World, also the Brooklyn Eagle, Long Island Press etc, etc. I remember in the early 60′s when they began to consolidate and sometimes yes even go out on strike never to publish again. I find it intrigueing how so many included in this video have such little recollection of how newspapers have ever so slowly been disappearing, and now the “Paper of Record” who should be shocked, delusional one and all. Pathetic, it should have happened decades ago to the old old old grey lady.

  • Thomas Lipscomb

    As a former NYT co employee… I think this may be “just in time.”

    After all if you work in a company that thinks Paul Krugman, Frank Rich, and Thomas Friedman are people who can give useful guidance on economic questions, a dose of reality can be desperately needed.

    At least until Carlos Slim buys the paper.

  • TD

    “These folks might have avoided this if years ago they had stopped being so liberal and slanted in their news coverage and created a product more people wanted to buy.”

    This is simply irrelevant to the macro financial problems faced by the news business. The “slant” of the NYT’s coverage is not the source of its troubles; there remains a massive audience for the NYT, as its web traffic makes clear.

    The problem faced by the NYT — and news products of all ideological stripes — is a fundamental structural shift wrought by the Internet, involving information consumption, digital advertising rates, etc.

    Yes, it would feel great to be gleeful at the idea that, after decades of slanted coverage, the NYT’s leftie bias is suddenly, miraculously biting it in the butt. Such glee, alas, would come at the expense of reality.

  • Rich K

    I hope the NYT stays afloat or I will have to find something else just as absorbant to line the litter box.

  • CatoRenasci

    I say the Times should keep the defined benefit plan – even goose it up a lot – and keep the troops happy right up until the day the paper files Chapter 11 and the pension obligations are abrogated in bankruptcy – the workers get stuck with whatever the government gives them on their pensions, usually about 40 cents on the dollar or less.

  • JorgXMcKie

    Aren’t many of these folk [especially those in 2-earner families] part of “the 1%”? Aren’t they the enemy?

    Pogo ‘Possum: “We have met the enemy, and they is us.”

    And how unfortunate that most of them apparently never took [or at least never understood] even basic arithmetic classes. That’s J-school for you, I guess.

  • Beasts of England

    I had to stop at the 1:11 mark. I’m embarrassed for them. That these alleged adults could espouse such sincere ignorance and entitlement – let alone allow themselves to be filmed in the process – defies the most elemental education. A microcosm of everything wrong with the economic left. Ugh.

  • P. Aaron

    Kinda sounds like what I’m hearing from Detroit city workers: a shrinking populace, declining tax revenues, many more people on the job than are necessary and the union(s) are saying “hell no” to any adjustments to pay, pensions or benefits or eventual layoffs. I am just across the county line watching it all go down.

  • vanderleun

    Oh this is rich, rich, rich.

  • http://moneyrunner.blogspot.com/ Moneyrunner

    What I find interesting about these people is that they are supposed to have their eyes and ears on the real world. The real world is one in which most companies long ago shed their defined benefit plans so they could stay in business. The Times Company stock price is down roughly 90%. Its profit margin is negative; its return on assets is negative. Maintaining a defined benefit plan is a death sentence for the company. Yet this video shows a bunch of people who are not only unaware of what the rest of the world is experiencing, they appear to be unaware of how precarious their own jobs are, let alone their pensions. I suspect that inside the NY Times building there is a lot of financial fat that makes the people that work there believe that the gravy train can run on forever. Just like the GSA employees in their Las Vegas spree and the president’s “advance team” in Cartagena.

  • http://theamericaninterest r charles

    the federal employee retirement plan (for career employees not political schmucks) has phased out their defined benefit plan in favor of the defined contribution plan years ago (TSP) these times peoples are wimps and behind the times, no pun intended

  • Supergenius

    I think it’s instructive that they all wear “Guild” buttons with no apparent irony.

  • Aloysiusmiller

    I quit listening when I saw the first speaker was wearing a bow tie. It signals that the speaker is very avuncular, articulate and an idiot.

    Am I judgemental? You bet your sweet bippy! It is still 99.9% accurate predictor.

  • Bohemond

    Welcome the the real world we proles inhabit, elitists.

  • Richard

    “Expect self-absorbed NYT writers to continue reporting favorably on (in reality unsustainable) defined benefit retirement plans for government workers… right up until the time the NYT writers loose theirs.”

    Actually, it is worse than that. NYT writers think their pension rights are superior to public sector workers. See linked article for an article/editorial on the subject of public pensions.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/07/your-money/07money.html?_r=1&ref=business

  • Ben

    “How is that any different from corporate management against whom they are negotiating? Why do employees need to be so perfectly self-aware as well as perfectly prescient whereas their masters can merely focus on profit?”

    They only have to be if they want to claim the moral superiority of victimhood.

    More importantly, they need to be if they want to see their pensions. They’re pushing for a decision that, if the management were dumb enough to agree, would probably guarantee they never see a dime.

  • stas peterson

    Leftists living high on the hog in their left wing fantasy land, have Reality suddenly happen.

    Welcome to the real world. Cloacal Holes.

    Cloacal cavities are what they are in their writings. What else would you expect to hear from such pure vacuum-headed doofi?

  • Neo

    This is the state of pension, except for some union employees and government workers … they are now a thing of the past.

  • Marty

    To me, the Times staff in teh video seem very consistent—they also write about how public pensions should be preserved (let the taxpayers pay), and generally defend private pensions at other firms, displaying teh same naivete about how a competitive firm can stay competituve with a bloated cost structure. Naive, not very bright–but we already knew all that. they ARE consistent.

    It’s the Times management that are the hypocrites.

  • Gringo

    vg
    I am relishing the thought of Mareen Dowd living out of a cardboard box with her worldly belongings in a shopping cart.

    Ditto. Welcome to the real world, NYT reporters.

  • http://inthisdimension.com alex scipio

    These people are SOOOOO funny!!!!!

    They are shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, to discover they work in the real world and that their philosophy of personal greed re: pensions is what they have been flailing AGAINST for everyone else for years! (Was Rev Wright talking about them re: chickens?)

    Is there an IQ test to work at the NYT? You have to be BELOW a certain level to get hired?

    HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA …

    Maybe they could start writing stuff people want to read rather than line their bird cages with and they would be happier becaue their ‘news’paper wouldn’t go broke? Just askin’.

  • curettage

    Dutch 1960

    You’re spot on….and with another stimulus push after the 2012 election a certainty, those that are too-rigged-to-fail are likely to have their precious pension plans protected.

  • Stella Baskomb

    What if they gave a strike . . . and nobody cared?

  • Karen

    Dog (food) eating reporters?

  • Pettifogger

    Strike! Strike! Strike! Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your illusions of the sustainability of the Blue social model.

    Welcome to the world most of us live in. I am thankful my retirement security does not depend on the continued solvency of an employer or a pension fund. My insecurity comes from my retirement’s dependence on the sustainability of the American economy, which is highly dubious because people in power think like the schmucks in this video.

  • http://facingzionwards.blogspot.com/ Luke Lea

    Possibly off topic, but do you suppose tough times in the newspaper business is part of what is driving the tabloidization of NYT? Shoe leather is expensive, advertising revenues are declining. How else is a girl supposed to live?

  • jim

    Please, please, please go out on strike! Pretty, pretty please!

    (I know it’s a fantasy that it would ever happen; but it is sooo close!)

  • Bill Rudersdorf

    Michael Moore was facing a similar bit of employee discontent a few years ago. In his case, overworked and abused employees were organizing to join a union. He fired them, progressive soul that he is. The Times doesn’t have that option. Still, the situation is an embarrassment of riches.

  • Cb

    Too funny. The big laugh line is the guy who speculates that if the Times doesnt pony up that “other news organizations would be willing to hire us at a significantly higher salary”. Bwahahahaha. And what news organization would that be? The video listed these buffoon’s inflated six-figure salaries. Don’t they realize that they are both grossly overpaid as well as exceptionally replaceable? Exactly which news organization is chomping at the bit to get in a bidding war on a 60 year old $100k/year reporter? I mean, really.

  • Steve Adams

    A strike?!??! Is it Christmas already??

    The poor folks don’t realize NO ONE IN THE WORLD will pay them like they are paid now. . .

  • Jrr

    I heard this type of whining when my kids were 5-7 yrs old. “But, but you PROMISED!!!” Life is a series of events. Events are not scripted, not are they a promise of perfect endings. To rely on someone or something else to take care of you at age 65-85 because they “promised” is infantile and lazy. What happened to all the $$$ you had as disposable income you saved due to the Company paying into your retirement? Take care of yourself, don’t depend on the Company, the Government or even Ma and Dad! All I can think of is how strange these whiners would seem to early Americans. Seems self sufficiency has gone the way of the Dodo. Sad.

  • George

    Welcome to the real world, folks! I heard the word respect used; respect is earned not demanded. You have supported the administration that we now have in Washington, and now, you too are reaping the benefits!

  • gazza90

    I’m with the NYT labor union on this. If they get their way the paper goes under and everyone wins. Much better than the temporary thrill of useless NYT reporters and columnists losing their pensions. What a pathetic bunch of losers.

  • sign of the times

    One suggestion to help Times employees keep their full defined benefit plans would be to reduce the paper by a mere couple of pages each issue, such as the OpEd two.

  • Angel Martin

    i think they should all go on strike for as long as it takes !

  • http://fpri.org Robert L. Freedman

    This video illustrates righteous smugness.

  • Emerson

    But aren’t unions working class royalty? Don’t they represent the trickle-sideways theory of marxist economics, where they get everything they want and more while non-union losers might get a little more too?

    How will the Democratic party survive without union money forced out of the hands of their members? What about all the teachers who committed sexual assaults? Will they be fired now too instead of being paid to sit in rooms and read newspapers all day? Will performance trump tenure?!

    I could go on but the horror of it is too much to bear.

  • Tonestaple

    Tag line: “Without us, the New York Times is just white space.”

    Raaaaaaacist!!!!!

  • Cindy

    It’s carrier pigeons right?

  • GC

    Perhaps the union’s website should be changed from:
    SaveourTimes.com/pension
    to:
    SaveourTimespension.com

    It’s nice to see a real cross-section of people work at the Times. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

  • Texas

    Fly meet windshield. I love the confidence that the defined benefit they all are “entitled to” will be there. Give me my own 401K any day at a discount … at least I know I own it. The pension won’t (or stands a pretty good chance of not being there if the Times business model continues on its current path)

  • John P. Squibob

    “…should make sure they are not eating soup or holding hot liquids before viewing the video below.”

    ASNRs (pronounced ‘asner’, http://tinyurl.com/76esscr), don’t forget about ASNRs!

  • Kenneth P. Katz

    I was trying to think about how to express my feelings, and finally arrived at this:

    Watching the vile New York Times go broke and its loathsome employees living in cardboard boxes would _almost_ be better than dating the entire model lineup from the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue.

  • Walter Sobchak

    Back in the mid 1970s, I moved to NYC and took a job. The newspapers went on strike, all of them. It was a bit of a pain as there was nowhere to get box-scores or sports news in that pre-ESPN era. If the papers went on strike now, they would be forgotten in 20 minutes.

    Further the idea that the NYTimes has superstars who could make a living without the paper is laughable. Krugman can always go back to his academic gig. And Friedman is so lost in the fog bank of his self importance that it might be years before he notices that he doesn’t have a job anymore. But the market for bitter left wing spinsters is very limited. The rest of them are going to find out how little we care about their opinions.

  • Scott

    I read recently that Pinch draws a salary of tens of tens of millions a year.

    Why doesn’t the union demand that he earn no more than 3x the salary of the average union member’s salary?

  • http://www.throatdiscs.com/ Foz

    Well at least they don’t eat dogs. So they got that going for them… so far anyway.

  • Roz

    I love the threat that without them the Times would be just a blank white sheet of paper. With them it’s the black hole of every rotten policy idea of the last 100 years.

  • PR

    the only one on my block that takes the Times is the cat lady on food stamps next door.

  • BillH

    #30 Vinny B.: You left out McCarthyism. Back to liberal epithet rehab for you.

  • Watchers

    For all these years that the liberal elite have bashed and hated upon a UAW member and refused to drive one of those cars.. would you like to know the retirement for a 30-yr employee who actually has to do physical labor 8 hours a day? You can find this in any contract, but the ’07 and ’11 contract is listed as $50 per month per year.

    Do you understand that equals $18,000 a YEAR

    Good bye media, it really wasn’t nice knowin ya.

  • http://open.salon.com/blog/richard_rider Richard Rider

    This YouTube video is now up on my Facebook page, with the following comment:

    This video of disgruntled, baffled, clueless NEW YORK TIMES writers — complaining about losing their coveted guaranteed defined benefit (DB) pension plan — looks like something the ONION would have produced. It’s worth a viewing.

    It’s really hard for those of us who live outside the liberal bubble to realize how TOTALLY out of touch progressives are with fiscal reality. It seems like all those interviewed in this video live together in a hermetically sealed room, feeding off each others’ thoughts and opinions.

    Everyone who still looks to the NY TIMES as a source of news needs to understand who is WRITING that news. And it shows — both in the paper’s bias and the plummeting readership.

  • Robb

    I am a 29-year-old journalist. I can not only report, which I’ve been doing for 4 years now, but also shoot professionally, edit video professionally and produce radio. There are many, many journalists around my age who can do all those things professionally. The Times would have absolutely no trouble replacing its disgruntled staffers. And I wonder, how many of these staffers are digitally fluent? Why is this video populated with so many old faces?

  • Captain Kirk

    Let’s do the time warp again!!! Wow, this really demonstrates where these folks are in their reporting…they can’t see past their own immediate greed, I mean need. I also noticed not one of them mentioned that they’d be drawing Social Security…oh wait, that’s already broke!

  • Nonagnostic

    There is a God.

  • MaryWilbur

    The video is no longer there.

  • Rob H.

    I say strike. Strike until you get the deal! Really, there’s no way for America to lose in this situation. Either they strike and damage the paper, or they get the concessions and the paper goes bankrupt earlier.

  • rnmd

    The value of diversity that they push on us is notably absent among these enlightened intellectuals.

  • Mark

    “The good thing about a defined contribution plan is that you don’t lose the money if your ex-employer goes broke.”

    This is NOT TRUE! I have several relatives that worked in the Steel Mills as unionized workers for several decades. When the Mills went bankrupt in the late 1990′s, those guys that had been working there got about 25 cents on the dollar of their promised pension.

    WHERE WAS THE UNION LOOKING OUT FOR THEIR WORKERS?

    This same thing is going to happen to many people in the coming years that thought they had a guaranteed income stream via a pension until they die but are going to find out that is not the case.

    So, to the NYT babies crying about actually having to contribute to their own retirement I would say having a 401(k) that you own is far superior to the promise of a pension the company doesn’t have the money to pay. Once they hand that over to the Federal Government you can expect to get about a quarter of what you were promised.

    It’s not an if, it’s just a matter of when. Ponzi schemes always fall apart & the people who get screwed are those there at the end.

  • Hypernonpartisan

    The irony of biased news coverage is that it undermines the credibility of not only the sources, but of the very causes they champion. The critical reader must ask: If the causes they champion are correct, why can they not withstand unbiased reporting?

    One might expect “elite intellectuals” to understand this, but the Bubble is apparently more powerful than many brains.

  • retired military

    I wouldnt wipe my [behind] with the NY TIMES

  • Darrell Judd

    Mr. Mead might want to take a little time away from blogging to read Ellen Schulz’s book “Pension Heist”. At least then his schadenfreude might be tempered slightly by seeing what corporations have done to defined benefit plans over the past 15 years.

  • Doug8765

    It’s hard to believe that folks don’t understand how absurd Defined Benefit programs are and how commonsensical Defined Contribution programs are.
    The DB programs put huge, long term risk on employers for which it is very difficult to plan. Lots of companies don’t exist long enough to pay off. The DC programs are expensed every year, as the employee’s salary is expensed.

    The DB programs are unwise financially and the sooner they are gone the more stable the entire economy will be.

  • Wrecktafire

    Unions get their power in two ways, one good and one bad.

    1) Popular support, generated by sympathy for genuinely oppressed workers, and
    2) government rules which automatically favor the union.

    When #1 is no longer operative, #2 can only postpone the eventual death of the union’s power.

  • Ian

    And now we know why the NYTs still supports the current administration. Welcome to the real world, staffers!

  • Jim Blass

    Perhaps if their stories were not so unfair and unbalanced they would have a bigger circulation and therefore could afford to keep these so called jounalists happy. The NYT’s is to newspapers what MSNBC is to cable news. When you become really biased your readership goes down.

  • Ian

    To Darrel Judd, a good reason to endorse the switch to defined contribution plans. It reinforces the schadenfreude since the NYTs has been writing about the subject for many years.

  • EF Hutton

    call 1-800- cry me a river. welcome to the world the rest of us live in.

  • moderateGuy

    Considering the kind of “product” they put out, they should be eating cat food and living in cardboard boxes TODAY.

  • kj

    Course, the video did not show any of the NYT employees who expressed a view differing from the one the Union wanted to publish.

    So it is possible there are actually THINKING BRAINS employed at the NYT – and they are probably smart enough to have made other plans with regard to their retirement.

    Retirement is that phase of your personal life after leaving your employment years – that makes it YOUR PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, people, to see that you are adequately financed. duh.

  • Landon

    Too bad they didn’t break down the pension loss per anti-capitalism article produced rather than simply loss per year!
    It’s your bed too NYT! You had a big part in pissing it, now sleep in it with the rest of us.

  • Manny

    Wow, this even got Times reporters to reference “God” and “Heaven.” What’s the world coming to?!?!

  • Maggie

    Welcome to the real world boys and girls. It’s Wisconsin all over again. Can’t afford you anymore. Hate to say it but if you guys strike you can kiss the NYT goodbye. Circulation is in the toilet. Biased articles have forced a reduction in subscriptions and as Obama’s caretaker, what can I say.

  • Maggie

    Welcome to the real world. Company’s can afford so much. After that the last straw that broke the camels’ back becomes the rule of law. If you strike, you are only causing yourself a whole lot of harm, and will never be able to recoup what you lost. Striking is not an option.

  • J

    Just ask Obama to steal a little more from the rich…it’s easy

  • Max17

    I thought everyone knew pension plans are a thing of the past. Apparently the idiots working for the NYT need to read a newspaper every once in a while.

  • Kevin1993

    I only saw one anti-Mormon cult comment, along with a shot at black hating whities. Things are getting better.

  • William McDill

    OK, maybe FOX News would hire a few, the WSJ might get one or two but the rest? Robb (#96) is right, no one over 50 has clue about the real world (I am 76). Since I am a real live hillbillie, I saw throw the into the real world and see who survives.

    I love Schadenfreude.

  • Virginia Mom

    Well, well, well. There is NOT an endless supply of OPM (Other People’s Money) after all! As one who lost the family breadwinner at age 19, with 6 younger siblings for my grieving mother to raise, and my own tuition (and wedding costs and first mortgage and all those grown-up fees)to pay, I say, “Boo-flippin-hoo.” Nobody ever said, “Don’t worry, dear, somebody else will provide for you.” Thank God I got that. Sorry the entitled, spoiled, gimme-gimmes of the NYT missed that lesson. Poetic justice.

  • http://open.salon.com/blog/richard_rider Richard Rider

    Sadly, there may be method in their madness. Drive the NY TIMES into BK, get the pensions covered by the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation (like the FDIC but for private pensions), and shift the pension funding cost to other corporations with healthy pensions — and ultimately to the U.S. taxpayer. For it is the TAXPAYER who really guarantees PBGC pension “insurance.”

    Another unfunded liability for us taxpayers to carry. Oh joy!

    If they were ruining just their OWN employer, that would be fine with me. But these elitist snobs want YOU and ME to guarantee their above-market pension that their employer can’t afford to continue.

  • DC Bruce

    Having just marked my 63rd birthday (still working, BTW), I find these folks just sad. I feel bad for them, in the same way that I felt bad for my children (when they were children) when something didn’t go as they expected. And mostly, I feel bad for them and everyone else who acted in reliance on promises made by politicians and others that there were certain future risks that they didn’t have to worry about because they didn’t exist. The Depression Generation knew better. No one told them that the Depression was coming; and someone told them or their parents that World War I was the war to end all wars. They found out otherwise. Placed in contrast to that generation, these people look like superannuated children; and I cringe every time I listen to one of them or read what they write. NYT’s rock stars have nothing to worry about. Paul Krugman is a tenured professor at Princeton. Tom Friedman makes millions on books and, most likely, speaking to corporate audiences for a 5-figure fee. He lives in a reproduction antebellum mansion in the DC suburbs built by a New Deal lawyer with whom I was acquainted. But the folks in this video ceded responsibility for their lives to someone else, and now they’re complaining about it. If the Guild was truly worth anything, it would be sitting down with management to figure out a way to keep the paper solvent and keeping these people employed. And, given his record, Mexican billionaire Carlos Slim isn’t likely to be their salvation. He didn’t make money by wasting it.

  • Joe Biden

    Welcome to the real world. How about the web guy making $100k. You don’t just get the 3% they match. How about saving for your own retirement like the rest of us. $100k is plenty to do both. Defined benefit plans are a dying dinosaur. Wake up people and take care of yourselves.

    Absolutely delicious video, though.

  • Jason S

    They priced themselves and their employer out of the market. Too bad.

    A broader takeaway is that people who refuse to address the entitlement problem in this country are doing it out of sheer selfishness. They are hoping the dyke holds out just long enough to collect their benefits and really couldn’t care less about the deluge awaiting their posterity. Truly shameful. I know kindergartners who are better at sharing.

  • John in PA

    Funny how some of the employees use the word “respect”. As if the company is doing this because they don’t “respect” workers. Employees should learn to “respect” market forces. They are smart people, right? Is it really that hard to comprehend?

  • http://RealClearPolitics Chance

    I Find it amazing that those that work for the NY Times are so blind to the truth. I think they are cowards not to speak out against the left. Hope and Change has become Whine and Blame. P.S. Go Scott Walker!!

  • Biggoofer

    These PUNDITS know a lot about many things: Global warming, Green Energy, Political obstructionism from Republicans, Plight of Public Employee Unions, Social Darwinism, Christian bigotry,…..
    They just didn’t realize that NYT is a big bad Corporation just like Exxon, Koch, & Halliburton. What happens to their Defined Benefits when (not IF) NYT files bankruptcy?

  • Cosifantutti

    For all these years I thought they were a smart enemy; wily, educated, diabolically hardwired to an opposite pole of reason. Turns out they are simply myopic, selfish morons so disconnected from any economic literacy that it is literally unbelievable. Their sense of their own ability to adapt betrays the slavish hewing of the Democrat line: if someone don’t print me some [EBT/unemployment/pension/bailout/welfare/UN dues] I gone hafta eat cat food! I can’t possibly be expected to take care of myself; JUST PRINT THE MONEY, BARRY!

    (Bart Simpson voice): please go on strike, please go on strike, please go on strike…..

  • http://voltronsplace.blogspot.com FreedomFan

    Boo hoo, comrades! Welcome to the Obama Depression.

    Did you think you biased journolists were somehow insulated from the suffering of the peasants?

    Try doing some real reporting. Try hiring some Conservatives. Leave yer little groupthink bubble.

    Or go on strike like the spoiled children in Greece.

  • Sub349

    Welcome to the reality that many of us in what the ‘elite’ pundits call ‘flyover land’ have been living for many years. DB plans are a thing of the past and an individual must take the responsibility to plan for her/his own finacial future. These people have been living in lala land.

  • rsm

    Tomorrow’s Paul Krugman column will be entitled “Government not spending enough on journalist pensions. World scheduled to end Friday.”

  • Concerned

    Why anyone would be happy about anyone losing their pension benefits is beyond me.
    Yes, the earth is shifting under our feet, and yes, we have devalued labor to the point of near irrelevance, but why does this make the author happy?

  • Goldwaterite

    Well, well, well. What goes around really does come around.
    At least Krugman can melt down the gold within his Nobel Prize.

  • bob

    It is such a joy to read the opiinons of many other people who dislike and disrespect the NYT as much as I do. THANK YOU SO MUCH YOU GOOD PEOPLE!

  • Gabe

    Please strike. Than we don’t have to listen to your pointless [garbage] anyways.

  • Indyman

    To Concerned #134: I don’t know that “happy” is the right word to describe the author and many others who have responded here. I think we are just enjoying the moment. The NYT staffers are behaving like spoiled brats. Not one of them displays any understanding of or sympathy for the financial plight (much of it deserved) of their employer. Nor do they express any feelings for the millions of other Americans who have experienced similar reductions of benefits.
    For them, it’s all about “me.”

  • Mr Football

    Change!! Oh my [gosh], change!! Stop the change!!! I can’t handle change!!!! Such weak people.

  • Mark R

    >In 2002, NYT sold at $48; now it $6.34.

    At first I misunderstood this comment as I was thinking of the price of the paper, not the price of its stock.

    But that leads me to notice: back in 2002, before digital news took over and you could buy the paper for 75c, one share of NYT stock was worth the same as nearly 65 copies of the paper. You could start on Monday and keep buying for about two months, including Sundays.

    Today, with the print version having exploded in price to $2.50 in just the past few years, one share won’t even get you to Wednesday.

    $2.50 is 20 minutes of a burger-flipper’s labor. Think today’s teenagers and younger workers are ever going to get into buying your paper? Think again.

  • http://thetenthousandproofsofgod.wordpress.com/ Robert

    Excellent comments!
    Even the liberals who posted here make the point — that liberals have no clue about economic reality. Thanks to each and every one of you.

  • Joseph J. Baum

    These people have disseminated so much leftist garbage, never thinking that reality would eventually catch up with them. The cuts of the past few years, the layoffs, the drop in share price, none of this made even a ripple in the pond of their confidence that they were right and conservatives were wrong. They have clung to the lunacy of the left despite the collapse of virtually every socialistic government in the world. All of a sudden, when the buzzards come home to roost, they have gotten religion.

  • Alan Wiznitzer

    I am hoping for a strike that would cripple the Times and help bring an end to this propaganda organ of the American left. The ideology of the Times and its longevity and, thus, credibility in the minds of millions are a lethal combination. The American culture is what it is lethal to. The so-called liberal media and our Leninist/Secular Humanist infiltrated educational system have wounded our culture, perhaps mortally so. It remains to be seen whether America has life left in her. The old gray lady has pneumonia, and, in keeping with liberal ideology, I think euthanasia is a viable option.

  • CitiKitty

    My goodness ! Those New York Times desk-jockies are in such a snit that one would suspect that someone (e.g. “Mr. Hand”) had stolen all the “golf balls” from their IBM Selectric typewriters !
    I salute their “Saturday Night Live” like video in which they snivel and whine about the proposed revision of their Defined Benefit Plan.
    Their whimpering is the most chortle inducing puling and mewling I have seen since the old S.N.L. Mr. “Oh ! Nooooo !” Bill episodes of 30+ years ago.

  • John Whitehurst

    “they’re getting precisely the kind of business model that they’ve been lobbying for for decades. Hoist by their own petard. And hopefully their example will illuminate the survivors when they’re gone”

    Love it, perhaps the others, Liberal Media wil also go under..

  • John Whitehurst

    ” I am only surprised no one here has blamed the black president, because as you people always say its the black man’s fault.”

    Really? Did you read the article, if you did perhaps you did not comprehend that they did it too themselves.. The same Liberals who think the US should just print money; without a care as to how they make money..The times has been in a donward spiral since they started going liberal, very few people buy the [profanity removed] these same people are writing about, so the Joke is on them..Join the rest of US who got screwed by the Govt and Wall street…..

  • John Whitehurst

    Over one hundre years down the drain.
    Let me help

    Remember the Air America liberal radio that went defunk. Well you need to make money so you can pay people.. TAKE NOTE HERE NYT! You also need to have something ( A Product )some one wants to purchase ( note wants to purchase )and guess what over the last ten years or so you have had less, maybe for some of the clowns in the Vedio living in the Bubble….and people who follow their [profanity removed]???,,,,..

  • Ricky Freakin Ricardo

    Nothing more annoying than hearing typing noises while letters appear across the screen. To [heck] with the NYT anyway.

  • observer

    hideous, meanspirited and unimaginative, and I don’t mean the Times reporters, I mean the people who have commented here. the times is not my favorite newspaper, and I think defined benefit plans have to go away in some fashion — they’re responsible for the demise of at least the US steel, car and airline industries, and for the bankrupting or near bankrupting of state and municipal governmetns. but pensions are no more “entitlements” than medicare and medicaid for working people who pay premiums for their coverage through payroll deductions. you can argue that the pensions (and medicare and medicaid benefits) are too rich, that the accounting profession is to blame for underfunding, and that the unions became too powerful; and it is by now clear that the companies or governments that agreed to the pensions can pay for them fully — but there’s no argument that the pensions weren’t fairly bargained for or that the employees who are now counting on them acted in bad faith. and there’s also no argument that the american interest and the wall st journal have defended working people to the same extent the new york times has. anyone who has lost their pensions or had them cut back and feels good about ripping into the times reporters might as well shoot themselves in the foot. it reminds me of Black Monday in October 1987 –a line worker in Detroit was interviewed and said, “it’s a good day for the little guy”. no it wasn’t! it was a horrible day for the little guy — that moron couldn’t connect the dots, and apparently you folks can’t either, you’re so blinded by your senseless hatred for the mythical “east coast liberal elite”. who the [heck] do you think is writing for the american interest and the wall st journal and the national review — not liberals, certainly, but east coast intellectuals who went to ivy league institutions and their equivalents. is it really so wonderful that people who have worked hard all their lives — whether you agree with them or not, whether you value what they write or not, whether you actually read them or not and know what they say or not — are cheated at the end? have you no decency, at last? or doesn’t that matter any more?

  • observer

    to the censors at the american interest: so, it’s ok for post 148 to write “To hell with the NYT anyway”, but when I use “hell” to ask a rhetorical question you have to change it to “heck”? One correction to my post, around the middle: “it is by now clear that the companies or governments that agreed to the pensions CAN’T pay for them fully”.

  • Jim

    #149 observer — I’d agree on the bargaining point with respect to companies, but governments are another story. Who is representing the “shareholder” (i.e., the taxpayer) across the table from the public employee union? Very often, it’s a Democrat official who is dependent upon that same union for votes and financial support, and who in turn has set up a system where the government takes from the paychecks a portion of what is theoretically earned by the unionized public workforce (and for which the paychecks are inflated by the correct amount to cover the cost), gives the money to the unions, and the unions then kick back a portion of it to the campaigns of those same public officials — voila, public financing for Democrat incumbents, laundered through the paychecks of the public employees, then through their unions. It’s unlikely that those same public officials are going to be hard-nosed, arm’s-length bargainers trying to get the best deal for the taxpayer’s dollar.

  • reader

    These NYT staffers are way too greedy! By getting jobs at the NYT, these people hit the jackpot in journalist; every reporter aspires to work at the NYT; they should not be complaining; they should feel lucky that they have good jobs in their chosen profession and that they’re getting paid a good amount of money for doing what they love. That is not the case for most people around the world! I’m an aspiring journalist and I would work for the NYT for no money at all.

  • Poppabob

    Those poor journalists at the Times, being asked to do what most of the rest of us do. I was self employed and am now retired and have watched the results of the policies promoted by these people downgrade my non-guaranteed pension plan significantly. Tough luck!

  • Mitch_Cali_Sux

    Liberalism is a Mental Disorder. Its funny watching them scurry around like the lemmings they are.

  • AD-RtR/OS!

    One of those awkward social moments…
    meeting reality face-to-face, and finding out that she’s really not nice.

    Hey, Times-people, it’s your bed, lay in it!

  • PaulH

    I lived the changing of the age-old media business model for 3+ years working for a large publishing group (Top 3 in the nation) attempting to sell ads in an environment of declining circulation and rising rates.

    Management of that company and the Times as well truly has no clue about how to manage their new reality. And as for the editorial stars, well…wake up and smell the coffee people. It’s about one thing and one thing only: Saving the business in the face of a changing and unsustainable business model that can no longer afford the luxury of your entitlement.

  • Stephen S

    Seeing and hearing the actual NY Times employees is hilarious. They fit the stereotype perfectly. Welcome to the real world, guys. I’ve been doing 401ks my entire career, jerks!

  • Chernevik

    It’s interesting to hear these folks discuss the economic value of risk burdens when their interests are at stake. That attention to was lacking in their reporting on the implicit guarantee of Fannie Mae’s debt.

    And I’m always struck by the complaint of “disrespect” without any attention to management’s ability to meet their expectations.

    I suppose management could meet their requirements by blowing up the company’s equity value. There might even be a case for doing so. But that’d be a one-time fix, pointless unless they also addressed the structural problems driving the crisis, the same structural problems these folks are studiously ignoring in the posture of wounded indignation.

  • John Whitehurst

    You guys need to listen to Paul Klugmann, the Nobel Prize winner. Yea the One who post in the NYT. Maybe he should have given his sage advice to the NYT like he does to the rest of the world. Great example of how liberals destroy a paper with a universal name and a reputation for truthfulness about ten years ago and before the Liberals took it over and slowly milked and killed it..>>>